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Virgin Pilot Training

Old 24th Mar 2019, 23:27
  #1 (permalink)  
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Virgin Pilot Training

Folks,
Food for thought, no more Australian trained pilots??
Tootle pip!!
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Old 24th Mar 2019, 23:41
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Flight Training Adelaide owned by HKers, one could say Virgin already send their cadets to a Chinese flying school.
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 00:17
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Yeh, its business

These people code share with anybody who will have them. Of course they will tout for as much business as they can through their partners Facility is owned by Tamworth Council outright.
Take the tinfoil hats off.

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Old 25th Mar 2019, 06:49
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Won’t somebody think of the children!
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 07:22
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737 Max pressure?

And who is 'pressuring' Virgin to cancel their 737 MAX order? An Airbus plant perhaps?
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 09:07
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Australian pilots get employed to teach others to fly. Local businesses benefit from increased economic activity. What’s the problem here?
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 09:14
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Originally Posted by plainmaker View Post
And who is 'pressuring' Virgin to cancel their 737 MAX order? An Airbus plant perhaps?
I wouldn’t be so conspiratorial. I’ve lost count of the number of times non aviation folk have told me they won’t fly in a MAX.
Hopefully Boeing fix the issues and the public have short memories, but it would be negligent of virgin management not to be considering an alternative now in case of 1. Lack of resolution to the problem, 2. Public avoidance or 3. (Heaven forbid) the fix is approved and Virgin take delivery and it happens again somewhere and the fleet are re grounded.
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 22:54
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Originally Posted by aussie1234 View Post
Australian pilots get employed to teach others to fly. Local businesses benefit from increased economic activity. What’s the problem here?
aussie1234,
Why assume Australians will be (in the majority) employed??

In a phone call yesterday an interesting scenario was sketched out to me (and NO!!, it wasn't Dick) , involving exploiting the existing immigration laws as they apply to students who have done something like a university degree or similar here.

Under "appropriate" circumstances, graduated student can remain for post-graduate training and experience for some years, and for the lucky (canny) few, it can lead to Australian permanent residence and later, citizenship.

You can work out the rest --- kids under contract from China, India or wherever do however many years the law allows gaining "post graduate experience" as F/Os before they have to return home, producing a steady supply of RHS chairwarmers, or alternatively, junior instructors "gaining experience" to do the bulk of the flying training in a MPL course where the actual flight time is "as per the syllabus".

As for the "terms and conditions" --- the sundry awards and contracts would not necessarily automatically apply.

The bean counters reign, and everybody else gets soaked.

Tootle pip!!
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 23:47
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involving exploiting the existing immigration laws as they apply to students who have done something like a university degree or similar here.
This is the template QF are using with active involvement of former Union President.
The requisite was to 'demonstrate' a shortage, having established that the shortage was added to the skill shortage list.
Network Aviation was the template airline used to establish the 'shortage' (neglecting the remuneration was insufficient to induce sufficient supply) and broaden incrementally where the skill shortage permitted imported labour.
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 23:48
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Der takin or jorbs.

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Old 25th Mar 2019, 23:55
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What a load of nonsensical dog whistling.

FTA in Adelaide has HK owners yet the majority of Instructors are Australian.
CAE in Moorabbin has English owners yet the majority of Instructors are Australian.
STAA in Ballarat has Singaporean owners yet the majority of Instructors are Australian.
China Southern Fkying College in Perth has Chinese owners yet the majority of Instructors are Australian.
MFTA at Mangalore had Chinese owners yet the majority of Instructors were Australian.

The list goes on and on. I also note Leadslead you had no issue with the Qantas academy at Towwoomba have an American Company (L3) provide the Instructors for that startup. What’s actually your agenda here?

And are you also seriously suggesting Virgin is setting up a training academy, to be run by its Chinese owners, so they can send its Chinese students over here, to graduate them from that school, to then have them instruct ar the school and then move them on to Virgin mainline to get them experience before they go back to the parent company and fly for them, all the while being employed below the Pilot’s Award?

What on earth are you smoking?
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 01:14
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Colonel K I believe you will find L3 has pulled out of involvement in the QANTAS dream at TWB.
You can also add BAe at Tamworth prior to its demise was/is owned in the UK and the Instructors came from all over the place.
Talk about deja vu, Tamworth Council along with the then NSW Government and (I think) the Federal Government put up lots of money 29 or so years ago to create the then British Aerospace-Ansett Flying College.

CC
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 05:05
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Seagull201
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Originally Posted by LeadSled View Post
aussie1234,
Why assume Australians will be (in the majority) employed??

In a phone call yesterday an interesting scenario was sketched out to me (and NO!!, it wasn't Dick) , involving exploiting the existing immigration laws as they apply to students who have done something like a university degree or similar here.

Under "appropriate" circumstances, graduated student can remain for post-graduate training and experience for some years, and for the lucky (canny) few, it can lead to Australian permanent residence and later, citizenship.

You can work out the rest --- kids under contract from China, India or wherever do however many years the law allows gaining "post graduate experience" as F/Os before they have to return home, producing a steady supply of RHS chairwarmers, or alternatively, junior instructors "gaining experience" to do the bulk of the flying training in a MPL course where the actual flight time is "as per the syllabus".

As for the "terms and conditions" --- the sundry awards and contracts would not necessarily automatically apply.

The bean counters reign, and everybody else gets soaked.

Tootle pip!!
A person that holds an Australian/CASA CPL/NVFR/GDE 3 Instructor Rating, as a minimum qualification, can ONLY be employed, as a Flight Instructor in Australia.

A person must have the OZ qualifications, of a CPL/GDE 3 Rating to work here.

You will notice, that post graduate training is ONLY available to University degrees (law/finance/medical/etc), NOT to 12 to 18 month flying courses.

**The other issue is, I have read a while ago, that "cadet pilot's from Asian region airlines"," that train here", don't obtain CASA CPL/IR qualifications whilst training here!
They obtain qualifications that are applicable to their own country of origin, THEREFORE, these cadets/persons, CANNOT work as instructors in OZ, AS THEY, don't hold a CASA CPL/license.
I think the above is a valid point to consider!





 
Old 26th Mar 2019, 05:24
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Seagull,

The flying school I attended some years ago most certainly issued aussie licenses to the overseas airline cadets. The licence was then converted when they got home. My school trained Chinese, Vietnamese, Omani and a couple of Egyptians.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 06:42
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None of this is going to be of any significance.
In Australia, you will never see a flying school of the necessary scale to train the number of pilots required.
Seriously, it’s like trying to treat a shark bite with a bandaid!
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 07:32
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I have read about flying schools being established by various overseas airlines in Australia since Pontious was a cadet pilot.

Apart from a couple such as China Southern, Flight Training Adelaide (or whatever they are called), and I think one in Melbourne there have not been massive pilot factories established - and the ones named above are not massive.

The numbers quoted in the press for whatever brand of airline school - QF and VA - are farcical in my opinion. There is no doubt that some of the overseas airlines need those sorts of numbers but do we have the capability to train that many in this country? I would be surprised.

The big issue is getting the number of instructors. If a school is talking about 500 students a year then the requirement for instructors is going to be massive - it isn't like a grizzly CFI, a couple of grade 1's and a flock of Grade 2's and 3's is going to knock over 500 non english speaking students year in year out.

So the question is - can a school attract the number of instructors, particularly the senior ones required to actually manage the operation, and once they have them, keep them?

I doubt it.

The instructors, particularly the junior ones, are going to want to use the academy as a launch pad for their airline career - and rightly so. The older ones may see it as a way of getting into a career airline as well - depends on why they are still in the training industry - they may have a love for training - but either way the sponsoring airline needs to consider giving these people a career path into the airline, give them staff travel while at the academy and give them the respect that the teacher of their future pilots deserve.

If there was any consideration given to the training outcomes there might be consideration given to finding a way of getting existing trainers and checkers from the airlines to be seconded to the academy to give the students real world airline training - but to pay a 737, 330, 787, 777, 747 or 380 Captain their salary while training ab-initio students (unless you are paying the other instructors that same wage) is going to cause a bunfight.

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Old 26th Mar 2019, 07:45
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Seagull201,
You remind me of the President of the AFAP in 1989.

The Government can't do 1, 2 ,3 and 4 so we will win.

The Hawke Government did 1,2,3 and 4 and the domestic pilots lost.

What makes you think immigration regulations can't be changed with suitably successful lobbying, I have little doubt that a half way smart promotional campaign would have the "general public" believing that ---- with Australia's wonderful reputation for air safety (whether it is deserved or not is another question) --- that such a cheap and guaranteed supply of RHS chairwarmers for Virgin would be " a magnificent contribution to the future safety of air transport in the Asia Pacific Region". Indeed, have the "general public" clammering for such enhancements to air safety.

As for your comments about licensing ----- are you actually in the aviation sector??
Tootle pip!!

PS: Klink ---- I did say it was a scenario put to me ---- but I brought it up on PPRuNe because it is not really far fetched at all.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 07:49
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Seagull201
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Originally Posted by LeadSled View Post
Seagull201,
You remind me of the President of the AFAP in 1989.
The Government can't do 1, 2 ,3 and 4 so we will win.
The Hawke Government did 1,2,3 and 4 and the domestic pilots lost.
What makes you think immigration regulations can't be changed with suitably successful lobbying, I have little doubt that a half way smart promotional campaign would have the "general public" believing the ---- with Australia's wonderful reputation for air safety (whether it is deserved or not is another question) --- that such a cheap and guaranteed supply of RHS chairwarmers for Virgin would be " a magnificent contribution to the future safety of air transport in the Asia Pacific Region".
As for your comments about licensing ----- are you actually in the aviation sector??
Tootle pip!!

PS: Klink ---- I did say it was a scenario put to me ---- but I brought it up on PPRuNe because it is not really far fetched at all.
I don't agree with your comments!

I really don't care about your couple of thousand posts!

 
Old 26th Mar 2019, 08:18
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Join Date: Sep 2017
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Originally Posted by The Bullwinkle View Post
None of this is going to be of any significance.
In Australia, you will never see a flying school of the necessary scale to train the number of pilots required.
Seriously, it’s like trying to treat a shark bite with a bandaid!
For the thinking pilot it is a tacit admission the long denied shortage is real, it will persist and airlines are concerned.

Further, having successfully strip mined General Aviation and the military, as well as self funded (indebted) cadets, there is still insufficient supply to address the increasing retirement rates.

Both QF and VAH are building Potemkim villages, probably complete with cardboard aircraft.
Airlines have enjoyed the upper hand that unlimited supply gave them in pilot negotiations.
They will persist with the illusion until it is painfully obvious to all that they need more pilots as evidenced by the idle aircraft hiding at airports country wide.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 09:04
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Originally Posted by Snakecharma View Post
I have read about flying schools being established by various overseas airlines in Australia since Pontious was a cadet pilot.

Apart from a couple such as China Southern, Flight Training Adelaide (or whatever they are called), and I think one in Melbourne there have not been massive pilot factories established - and the ones named above are not massive.

The numbers quoted in the press for whatever brand of airline school - QF and VA - are farcical in my opinion. There is no doubt that some of the overseas airlines need those sorts of numbers but do we have the capability to train that many in this country? I would be surprised.

The big issue is getting the number of instructors. If a school is talking about 500 students a year then the requirement for instructors is going to be massive - it isn't like a grizzly CFI, a couple of grade 1's and a flock of Grade 2's and 3's is going to knock over 500 non english speaking students year in year out.

So the question is - can a school attract the number of instructors, particularly the senior ones required to actually manage the operation, and once they have them, keep them?

I doubt it.

The instructors, particularly the junior ones, are going to want to use the academy as a launch pad for their airline career - and rightly so. The older ones may see it as a way of getting into a career airline as well - depends on why they are still in the training industry - they may have a love for training - but either way the sponsoring airline needs to consider giving these people a career path into the airline, give them staff travel while at the academy and give them the respect that the teacher of their future pilots deserve.

If there was any consideration given to the training outcomes there might be consideration given to finding a way of getting existing trainers and checkers from the airlines to be seconded to the academy to give the students real world airline training - but to pay a 737, 330, 787, 777, 747 or 380 Captain their salary while training ab-initio students (unless you are paying the other instructors that same wage) is going to cause a bunfight.
Not every Grade 1 instructor has a wish to move on into RPT: many I know are happy with ab initio training, with others likewise for more advanced pilot training. Not that you'd expect them to work their bums off for award wages at a large overseas student flight school either. There would need to be a carrot in the contracts. But, anyone retiring out of RPT, and looking to do some 'retirement instructing' would probably not expect to be paid as they were in airlines. However, there probably isn't anywhere near the number of senior instructors necessary to oversee several large flying schools in Australia. happy days,
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