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New pilots on the 737. Watch that pitch up on go around

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New pilots on the 737. Watch that pitch up on go around

Old 1st Jul 2018, 22:15
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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The other thing is, people don't understand the difference between trimming a moving stab and an elevator. If you are pushing full forward to save the day, you don't trim a flying stab to stick position. You'll end up going 'over the hill' so to speak. That stab on the 737 is very powerful and easy to over control.
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Old 2nd Jul 2018, 04:20
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by john_tullamarine View Post
The NG does of course have a pitch up tendency but nothing like the 300 had.

Now, if you REALLY want a pitch up on the miss, try a full flap miss at minimum speed on a Super Cub ....
Better still try a Cessna 185 with full load and full flap,
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Old 2nd Jul 2018, 06:30
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Please forgive me but,

I went from a light twin to a 737 Classic.

Yes, there was a profound pitch up moment but gee it wasn't that hard. Fly the aircraft and be done with it.
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Old 2nd Jul 2018, 07:25
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Early intervention to contain a pitch up is vital; especially in IMC or dark night condition
Yes, there was a profound pitch up moment but gee it wasn't that hard
But was the go-around on instruments at night in IMC. Different story altogether..
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Old 2nd Jul 2018, 14:21
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Centaurus View Post
But was the go-around on instruments at night in IMC. Different story altogether..
Several go-arounds during type rating, limited panel etc. Only a few in real life. Proper training aligned with flying the aircraft once again.
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Old 2nd Jul 2018, 14:54
  #26 (permalink)  
swh

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Originally Posted by excrab View Post
The 737 is that simple, once you select speed on the approach. Autothrottle goes to arm mode, you move the thrust levers manually but if you press TOGA you get go-around thrust.
Should that not say that pressing TOGA gives go-around flight guidance however it may or may not give go-around thrust. Eg EK 777 at DXB.
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Old 2nd Jul 2018, 18:45
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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I canít really comment on that, as I have no knowledge of the 777 having never flown it. However that was an attempt to go around initiated after touch down, which isnít what the OP on this thread was talking about.
But ok, Iíll modify what I said. With speed mode selected pressing TOGA will, if it is working as designed, with the aircraft airborne, give you TOGA thrust. Totally nothing to do with the flight director commands which will happen whatever the A/T is doing.
Of course you should still be covering the thrust levers and do something yourself if they donít move, same as any time a power change is supposed to happen with the A/T engaged.
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Old 5th Jul 2018, 06:59
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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And a couple of other things, highly relevent to this discussion:

1. How does the trim work? Please see this excellent article: https://skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/2627.pdf

A little quote from that article, to whet your appetite:

Your speed is low, about Vapp and the thing is pitching firmly upward. You need ample forward stick/elevator to restrain it. You donít want to carry this load for long so you retrim. Question: if you run the trim forward while maintaining forward pressure on the wheel, what happens? Hands up all those who think the load reduces to zero. I see a lot of hands. My unscientific polling to date suggests that just about everyone is convinced that this is what happens, but it doesnít.
2. Be careful in the application of nose-down trim. The FlyDubai 737-800 that dived into the ground following a go-round at Rostov-On-Don in 2016 was put into that attitude by an excessive application of nose-down trim (the application lasted for 12 seconds!). Having established the aircraft in the go-round, the PF (Captain) then pressed the trim switch forward, and held it there, knowing that several seconds of application would be required. His intention, no doubt, would have been to release the switch after a few seconds, but with the high cockpit workload at the time, it appears he then became distracted - with his thumb still pressing the switch forward!

The end result was a 12 second nose-down trim application that, after sending loose objects and unrestrained passengers onto the ceiling, gave a 50 degree angle of descent!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flydubai_Flight_981
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Old 5th Jul 2018, 11:37
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Your speed is low, about Vapp and the thing is pitching firmly upward. You need ample forward stick/elevator to restrain it. You donít want to carry this load for long so you retrim. Question: if you run the trim forward while maintaining forward pressure on the wheel, what happens?
But that isn't what pilots do (or should'nt do). You're pushing to maintain an attitude (not pushing to maintain a force), and as soon as the trim starts taking effect, the stick-load will reduce because as you're maintaining the GA attitude; you'll be reducing the pushing on the stick. Basic IF technique.
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Old 7th Jul 2018, 04:19
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs View Post
But that isn't what pilots do (or should'nt do). You're pushing to maintain an attitude (not pushing to maintain a force), and as soon as the trim starts taking effect, the stick-load will reduce because as you're maintaining the GA attitude; you'll be reducing the pushing on the stick. Basic IF technique.
Mmm, you've cracked the code. Make a note ! I wonder if that deceased Captain in Russia would have typed the same paragraph from his armchair ?
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Old 7th Jul 2018, 04:33
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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I was in no way commenting on what happened at Rostov. It is plainly obvious I was commenting on the quote that FDG135 made from the internet article.
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Old 7th Jul 2018, 07:54
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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I suspect Rostov was more of a fatigue issue than a system design issue. Talk to a pilot flying similar rosters and they will tell you that it’s hard enough steering your car in a lane when that tired let alone flying a missed approach in the early hours of the morning. The pilot in question had already resigned siting fatigueing rosters as the reason.
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