Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

BNE fog this evening.

Old 8th Jul 2017, 01:37
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Ask yourself why the majority of viewers of this thread don't have central heating, or double glazing in their homes. Its simply because for most of the year it's not needed.
Except they are willing to cop the economic cost of not having those items. Ill bet if electricity prices were to become exorbinately high then double glazing, personal generators/battery systems will become the norm.
The problem at the moment is that unlike your house there is no economic cost to airports in providing woeful aviation facilities.

IF Brisbane airport had to pay the full economic cost of the fog last night a CAT III system would have been built years ago.

It would make for an interesting study for someone to figure out the true economic cost to Airlines from over the world the lack of Aviation infrastructure in this country. I would also include the lack of viable alternates in that as well.

Melbourne Airport were the only ones to proactively build low visability facilities, SYD and PER were embarrassed and/or pressured into it
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Old 8th Jul 2017, 01:40
  #22 (permalink)  
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Ask yourself why those questions are never asked of the owners of Australian airports by so called journalists.
It's ok the news (?) via the wireless, reported there was only 30 diversions and 80 flight cancellations last night. Happy days.
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Old 8th Jul 2017, 01:55
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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https://higginsstormchasing.com/rare...isbane-city-2/
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Old 8th Jul 2017, 12:43
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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On the other side of the great BNE fogging…..

Mrs Ballast drove across to YSCB (about an hour trip one way) to take 2 sons flying to BNE to visit relatives for the school holidays. Delivered Masters 12 and 15 to the flight, waved good bye and headed to the shops for a few things that are harder to come by in the rural areas and returns home. Planning a movie night and dinner.

After 2 hours makes mention, “gee, I haven’t heard from the boys, unusual, they usually call when they get there” then right on que….. phone rings.

The relatives “the airport is closed and the plane is circling, not sure what is going on….”

We jump on FlightRadar to see the boys flight had completed a few long orbits over BNE and was now abeam Walcha tracking south…..oh, this can’t be good….and a procession of a/c following….. airspace over BNE like a ghost town.

Watched as they made one orbit in the Hunter Valley and then turned for YSSY.

Mrs Ballast hit panicked mother mode within 2.5 nano seconds……

Several tense phone calls and Internet searches we are in the car driving to Sydney (2.5 hours’ drive away) to find Masters 12 and 15. Now agitated Mrs Ballast, in stressed Mother mode, was willing the other road users out of our way, and (as one would expect) worried about junior Ballasts.

Long story short – arrive Mascot Domestic, children fine, as expected on the tools of the devil - social media devices - and not a care in the world, “Hi mum, what are you doing here…….” Nothing more than a bit tired after a 5 hour jaunt. Virgin find us accommodation, tell us to wait for a call or text for alternatives and by 1am we are fast asleep.

We took a punt and returned to Domestic @0600 pre-coffee and were lucky to find the next to last seats heading to YBNA where said relatives drove from BNE down to pick up boys.

Speaking to a few of the more unlucky passengers that were behind us, sounds like many will still be in Sydney tonight waiting for flights or other ways to get home.

While it has been a long 24 hrs, 590km drive, 5 hours sleep, cursing everything Sydney – and $200 worth of parking!! Everyone is where they are supposed to be.

Have to also mention, young lady from the cabin crew on the flight, Cassandra, went over and above what could ever be expected to assist us and Master 12 and 15 – including offers for the boys to use her personal mobile phone for contact and letting us know what was going on 3 times in the space of 90 minutes while we were still on-route, and Cassandra assisted with arranging accommodation.

We know that the flight also had quite a few unaccompanied minors, school holidays and all – not sure what happens in these cases with those children, I assume someone from the airline will stay with the children o/night in accommodation and The Lounge?

I am betting not everyone would have been in the same position as us and able to drive up and be there.

Just out of interest, anyone here have any ideas what the Policy is for such cases?
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Old 8th Jul 2017, 14:12
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by topend3 View Post
YPPH will be CAT 3 soon they don't have fog hardly ever either
Often enough or it wouldnt be happening
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Old 8th Jul 2017, 14:15
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by chuboy View Post
Enjoyed the banter on the tower frequency all the same

On a more serious note the lack of nearby alternates is a bit concerning, CG filled up pretty quick with the China Airlines heavy having to wait on the taxiway with nowhere else nearby to go. Wellcamp was fogged in as well even if you were thinking of using it. Emirates A380 had to go to Melbourne. I think Sunshine Coast and Hervey Bay filled up as well.

End result we saw a Virgin make two approaches and a few orbits before going straight to Rocky, can you track via SU "no we require direct RK due fuel"

Yes this is the first time in many people's memory that Brisbane has fogged over at night but we do get it in the mornings from time to time and its the same story, lots of internationals looking for somewhere to divert. A bit of a joke really.

I do recall a year or two back a Qantas 747 had to divert from BNE due to the usual morning fog getting the better of our state-of-the-art CAT I approaches, ironically they diverted to Gold Coast which doesn't even have an ILS
Just because low vis ops in BNE doesnt mean there is low vis in GC
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Old 8th Jul 2017, 14:27
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Someone asked about the cost. Assuming the there is nothing wrong with the topology of the place and the ILS signal is of high enough quality the big ticket items are runway lighting, standby generators and signal monitors and training. So we are taking about a few million, not a lot of money. And then you have to ask, how many operators will be able to use such a system? Also, how often would the system be used? CAT III for Australia is a bit like buying snowploughs for Heathrow. They spent £4-5 M on equipment a few years ago and I don't think they have used it yet.

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Old 8th Jul 2017, 14:52
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 777Nine View Post
But it's not going affect my safety if I don't have central heating or double glazing.

Does anyone know the capital cost of Cat.III?
It will vary between airports. Its not just the CATIII ILS but also CATIII approach lighting, CATIII runway lighting & CATIII taxiway lighting and an up graded power supply to power all those lights. Without naming an airport but the cost is $36 million for a one particular airport in Australia
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Old 8th Jul 2017, 15:11
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That was a government job or I'm in the wrong industry - or both!

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Old 8th Jul 2017, 22:56
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Well it cost $6 million and 18 months to install two roundabouts near my place, so $36 million for all that infrastructure is about "right".
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Old 8th Jul 2017, 23:10
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Originally Posted by tomcat264 View Post
Just because low vis ops in BNE doesnt mean there is low vis in GC
Realise that and it's just as well. It was more a remark about the standard of infrastructure in Aus. Can't be many airports in the world handling heavy RPT without an ILS.
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Old 9th Jul 2017, 00:46
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Don't forget that you have to pay Airservices to maintain the ILS, as they are responsible for navaids in Australia.

Last edited by Traffic_Is_Er_Was; 9th Jul 2017 at 01:12.
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Old 9th Jul 2017, 01:11
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Does anyone know the capital cost of Cat.III?
Dunno exactly, but watching what's been going on at YPPH for the last couple of years, I'd a say a sh!tload. But then again, in the big scheme of things...
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Old 9th Jul 2017, 01:13
  #34 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by tomcat264 View Post
It will vary between airports. Its not just the CATIII ILS but also CATIII approach lighting, CATIII runway lighting & CATIII taxiway lighting and an up graded power supply to power all those lights. Without naming an airport but the cost is $36 million for a one particular airport in Australia
It depends on what needs to be done. I know that one of the issues PER had is that all the lights for the entire airport were wired through the old control tower. So when they wanted to expand the apron (and planning the CAT III further down the track) the actual cost was a truck load more than would normally be the case because of the untangling and re routing that needed to be done.
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Old 9th Jul 2017, 01:20
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Originally Posted by Traffic_Is_Er_Was View Post
Don't forget that you have to pay Airservices to maintain it, as they are responsible for navaids in Australia.
That is a diminishing burden as aids are phased out.

Another interesting anecdote from someone who was recently at the Boeing factory was they would like to see 100% autoland with GLS as SOP from 2020 onwards, presumably with CAT III as standard.
I can't vouch for the credibility of the anecdote, but a quick google search for boeing GLS autoland gives lots of hits, including an FAA 2014 GBAS progress report. The airports would be desperate to avoiding having to spend the money on a conventional ILS with such a tantalizing possibility so near.
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Old 9th Jul 2017, 01:38
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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The airports would be desperate to avoiding having to spend the money on a conventional ILS
Does the ILS itself cost a lot? It seems to me most of the work (maybe not the cost) is in the airport facilities, which would also be required for Cat 3 GLS.
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Old 9th Jul 2017, 01:50
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Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs View Post
Does the ILS itself cost a lot?
I don't know, however, the FAA report does do a cost benefit analysis. I suspect, the difference is that a single GBAS installation is required to do a ~20nm radius area. This limits the expense of each physical ILS installation. Ongoing calibration requirements & costs of ILS vs GLS are covered in the FAA report, page 9:
The approach information integrity in GBAS is digital and unchanging, unlike the analog signal from ILS which can change over time with component aging, and changes in the local environment through urbanization and construction. ILS requires regular flight inspection to ensure the approach path is repeatable and accurate. Once a GLS approach is defined and verified, its position does not change. Therefore, the flight inspection requirement (and cost) is reduced to approximately 50% of the ILS flight time requirement. For GLS, the requirement is 2.5 hours per station, 1.5 hours per approach (IAH example – 6 approaches with 11.5 hours total), ILS requires 10 hours per approach (equating to 60 hours for the IAH example). Annual maintenance/operations cost of GBAS for all runways is estimated at $75,000 whereas ILS operations cost per runway is over $90,000 (based on a 2010 GBAS program office assessment). For an airport like Houston with 6 ILS systems this amounts to $540,000 for ILS ops cost versus $75,000 for GBAS.
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Old 9th Jul 2017, 05:01
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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ILS in Wagga cost $1.6m.

And that's for a brand new installation on a runway that's never had an ILS.

Surely the diversions the other night alone cost the airlines $1.6m - in extra fuel, crew delays, aircraft delays/scheduling, and pax accommodation and arrangements.
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Old 9th Jul 2017, 05:43
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Surely the diversions the other night alone cost the airlines $1.6m - in extra fuel, crew delays, aircraft delays/scheduling, and pax accommodation and arrangements.
Mostly likely and it cost BNE airport $0. And they still got all their landing fees when everyone eventually got there the next day.

There is also no point in comparing ILS installations in Australia with the US, as the Australian Standard is different and much more expensive. I'm sure someone who has expertise in that field could elaborate.

Whilst GLS would fantastic everywhere the reliability of it for CAT III Ops is yet to be proven. Sydney Airport's installation has been plagued with interference and various tech issues in the past.
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Old 9th Jul 2017, 06:14
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Mostly likely and it cost BNE airport $0.
Most likely they made money with all the extra parking fees.
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