MERGED: Air Asia Turnback Perth 25 Jun 17
It does make one wonder about training when pilots think that because the ETOPS area was determined using 310kts that they then have to fly 310 kts. It's tempting to write them off as slack pilots but more likely I think is that their Airlines have not invested in effective training and a misunderstanding that occurs early in their training ( probably as an F/O or S/O) sits there for years without being detected by the checking/training department.
framer, another training shortfall according to the FAA. There was a specific concern relating to engine vibration after an inflight shutdown, which had led one flight crew to question the structural integrity of the airplane.
Inappropriate crew response, or not, seems to be the prime subject here.
Although the vast majority of propulsion system malfunctions are recognized and handled appropriately, there is a shortfall in some pilot’s abilities to recognize and handle propulsion system malfunctions. The shortfall from initial expectation is due to improved modern engine reliability, changing propulsion system failure characteristics (symptoms), changes in flight crews’ experience levels, and related shortcomings in flight crew training practices and training equipment.
Industry has not provided adequate pilot training processes or material to ensure pilots are provided with training for powerplant malfunction recognition. This shortfall needs urgent action to develop suitable text and video training material which can be used during training and checking of all pilots for both turboprop and turbofan powered airplanes.
There is generally no airframe or powerplant manufacturers’ input into realistic engine failure/malfunction scenarios as represented in simulators. Furthermore, the engine failures currently addressed in most training do not cover loud noises and the onset of heavy vibration. Complete and rapid loss of thrust is currently being trained and is probably the most critical from an airplane handling perspective; however, this failure is not necessarily representative of the malfunctions most likely to be encountered in service. There is also evidence that this lack of realism in current simulations of turbofan propulsion system malfunctions can lead to negative training, increasing the likelihood of inappropriate crew response.
Industry has not provided adequate pilot training processes or material to ensure pilots are provided with training for powerplant malfunction recognition. This shortfall needs urgent action to develop suitable text and video training material which can be used during training and checking of all pilots for both turboprop and turbofan powered airplanes.
There is generally no airframe or powerplant manufacturers’ input into realistic engine failure/malfunction scenarios as represented in simulators. Furthermore, the engine failures currently addressed in most training do not cover loud noises and the onset of heavy vibration. Complete and rapid loss of thrust is currently being trained and is probably the most critical from an airplane handling perspective; however, this failure is not necessarily representative of the malfunctions most likely to be encountered in service. There is also evidence that this lack of realism in current simulations of turbofan propulsion system malfunctions can lead to negative training, increasing the likelihood of inappropriate crew response.
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Ironically megan the FAA training video talks specifically about the points in your quote. Paraphrasing one of the comments in the video is that vibration IS NOT a problem for the flight crew (10:38 in the video), and there is no chance of a structural failure from vibration, although it states that altering speed and or altitude can significantly reduce vibration.
The vibration section starts at 9:38.
The vibration section starts at 9:38.
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Air Asia A330 just landed in Brisbane with an apparent engine fire out of Cooly. More prayer required for their engineering perhaps.
As an aside, the small amount of r/t I heard from them was all very professional on what would have been a stressful and short sector into an airport they've probably never been to before.
As an aside, the small amount of r/t I heard from them was all very professional on what would have been a stressful and short sector into an airport they've probably never been to before.
Inappropriate crew response, or not, seems to be the prime subject here.
i.e. inappropriate judgements by untrained PPruners.
For all we know the pilots might have been aware of the issues in the video just above and controlled the flight and vibration accordingly. Yet many are second guessing their assessments of the symptoms available to them in the conduct of obtaining safe flight and landing.
ATSB : Investigation number: AO-2017-066
FOR REFERENCE ;
ATSB rate incident as : Serious
Aircraft is still on the ground
ATSB : Investigation number: AO-2017-066
Summary
The ATSB is investigating an engine malfunction involving Airbus A330, registered 9M-XXE, near Carnarvon, Western Australia, on 25 June 2017.
As a result of an in‑flight engine fault, the aircraft was subjected to moderate airframe vibration. The flight crew elected to return to Perth.
As part of the investigation the ATSB will:
•interview personnel involved
•examine the engine damage
•download and analyse data from the flight data and cockpit voice recorders.
A report will be released within several months.
Summary
The ATSB is investigating an engine malfunction involving Airbus A330, registered 9M-XXE, near Carnarvon, Western Australia, on 25 June 2017.
As a result of an in‑flight engine fault, the aircraft was subjected to moderate airframe vibration. The flight crew elected to return to Perth.
As part of the investigation the ATSB will:
•interview personnel involved
•examine the engine damage
•download and analyse data from the flight data and cockpit voice recorders.
A report will be released within several months.
Aircraft is still on the ground
Last edited by WingNut60; 3rd Jul 2017 at 18:23.
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It does make one wonder about training when pilots think that because the ETOPS area was determined using 310kts that they then have to fly 310 kts. It's tempting to write them off as slack pilots but more likely I think is that their Airlines have not invested in effective training and a misunderstanding that occurs early in their training ( probably as an F/O or S/O) sits there for years without being detected by the checking/training department.
For 25+ yrs our SOP's have said "set xyz speed" during a single engine divert. The FAA document governing ETOPS stated that the operator chooses the speed for it's ETOPS distance/time and the FAA approves the procedure. If the company chooses to select a different speed it goes back to the FAA for approval. Granted, that is to define the ETOPS distance/time. The example given in the FAA document was slowing to allow a higher s/e cruise altitude due to terrain clearance.
Do you have a clarification from the FAA stating which speeds are acceptable to actually use during a divert? I'm curious as to why our SOP's state a specific speed if it's not a FAA requirement. Sometimes the answer is "we choose it." The ETOPS document itself does not specify, or restrict, using any speed except for the speed used to the ETOPS distance/time.
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The ETOPS document itself does not specify, or restrict, using any speed. It refers to the speed used to establish the ETOPS area but does not specific any speed to be used once the divert starts.
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Another engine problem with airasia x.. divert to Brisbane after takeoff from gold coast
http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel...127baf07018d24
http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel...127baf07018d24
Air Asia A330 just landed in Brisbane with an apparent engine fire out of Cooly. More prayer required for their engineering perhaps.
Difficult to blame a bird strike on engineering but you go ahead and try...
i.e. inappropriate judgements by untrained PPruners.
Imagine if you actually had to be a professional pilot to post on here, sigh.
Originally Posted by Lomapaseo
For all we know the pilots might have been aware of the issues in the video just above and controlled the flight and vibration accordingly. Yet many are second guessing their assessments of the symptoms available to them in the conduct of obtaining safe flight and landing.
Originally Posted by Misd again
ETOPS divert is at 320-335 KIAS.
Last edited by Capn Bloggs; 4th Jul 2017 at 03:52. Reason: BNE ASX only airborne for 22 minutes. Good job.
Am current on the same type as the Air Asia aircraft. VMO/MMO is only used to establish the rule distance (in our case, 1272nm for 180 min EDTO). It is NOT a requirement to fly at VMO/MMO during an EDTO diversion; furthermore, the newer types in the fleet (A350/777ER) are based on VMO - 10.
In addition, as VMO on the A330 is 330 KIAS, a diversion at 325-335 KIAS isn't doable. FWIW, our company policy is initially a driftown at Green Dot. Thereafter, flight beyond the nearest 'suitable airport' is only justifiable following consideration of numerous factors related to increased safety. Would have been hard-pressed justifying a decision to continue past Learmonth.
But I wasn't there, so I don't have all the facts.
In addition, as VMO on the A330 is 330 KIAS, a diversion at 325-335 KIAS isn't doable. FWIW, our company policy is initially a driftown at Green Dot. Thereafter, flight beyond the nearest 'suitable airport' is only justifiable following consideration of numerous factors related to increased safety. Would have been hard-pressed justifying a decision to continue past Learmonth.
But I wasn't there, so I don't have all the facts.
Surely that means land at nearest suitable (I'm not a bus pilot; their procedure may say "land an nearest convenient". Mine certainly doesn't)?.
Hi Misd-agin,
Veruka summed it up. The speed you are referring to is only used to determine the area. What you do in practice is up to you. Do you want to drift down slowly at green dot to avoid a mountain range and then cruise at s/e best range speed to arrive with more gas in tanks? Go for it. Do you want to go flat out because there is smoke in the cabin? Go for it.
Veruka summed it up. The speed you are referring to is only used to determine the area. What you do in practice is up to you. Do you want to drift down slowly at green dot to avoid a mountain range and then cruise at s/e best range speed to arrive with more gas in tanks? Go for it. Do you want to go flat out because there is smoke in the cabin? Go for it.
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Our SOP says 'set xyz' after diverting. As Veruka stated it appears to be in the range of Vmo minus 15-25(?) kts depending upon the aircraft type.
CA Bloggs - s/e LRC speed isn't provided to us in our performance pages. It is available in the FMC.
CA Bloggs - s/e LRC speed isn't provided to us in our performance pages. It is available in the FMC.
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I've dealt with a number of AOG recoveries for engine incidents. Two weeks plus is not unusual. In this case the ATSB may have quarantined the aircraft for a few days first before releasing it for repair. Insurance assessors may have wanted to see the aircraft before any repairs were carried out. Engine manufacturer probably wanted to attend and inspect.
Basic engine, reversers, cowlings and all the additional parts that normally get swapped over (starter, IDG, EDPs) will have to be sourced as the ones on the damaged engine will be quarantined for investigation. Maybe additional spares required for any damage found in the wing/pylon. And then all will have to be air freighted from all over the world due to their size (have you seen the shipping containers for these items?) and getting them customs cleared.
Then there is getting the manpower, heavy lifting equipment, specialist tooling, sourcing access/maintenance stands.......and Perth is not exactly local to the main sources for these items with no large aircraft hangar or heavy maintenance equipment. Even dealing with the airport authority to get airside passes and escorts while in the secure area. Local Engineering support and liaison to assist?
Then there maybe additional inspections specified by Airbus/RR and resolving the findings from those inspections.
And they are doing the same for the aircraft in BNE!
You have no idea.
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