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MERGED: Air Asia Turnback Perth 25 Jun 17

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MERGED: Air Asia Turnback Perth 25 Jun 17

Old 3rd Jul 2017, 07:06
  #241 (permalink)  
 
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framer, another training shortfall according to the FAA. There was a specific concern relating to engine vibration after an inflight shutdown, which had led one flight crew to question the structural integrity of the airplane.
Although the vast majority of propulsion system malfunctions are recognized and handled appropriately, there is a shortfall in some pilot’s abilities to recognize and handle propulsion system malfunctions. The shortfall from initial expectation is due to improved modern engine reliability, changing propulsion system failure characteristics (symptoms), changes in flight crews’ experience levels, and related shortcomings in flight crew training practices and training equipment.

Industry has not provided adequate pilot training processes or material to ensure pilots are provided with training for powerplant malfunction recognition. This shortfall needs urgent action to develop suitable text and video training material which can be used during training and checking of all pilots for both turboprop and turbofan powered airplanes.

There is generally no airframe or powerplant manufacturers’ input into realistic engine failure/malfunction scenarios as represented in simulators. Furthermore, the engine failures currently addressed in most training do not cover loud noises and the onset of heavy vibration. Complete and rapid loss of thrust is currently being trained and is probably the most critical from an airplane handling perspective; however, this failure is not necessarily representative of the malfunctions most likely to be encountered in service. There is also evidence that this lack of realism in current simulations of turbofan propulsion system malfunctions can lead to negative training, increasing the likelihood of inappropriate crew response.
Inappropriate crew response, or not, seems to be the prime subject here.
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 09:24
  #242 (permalink)  
 
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Ironically megan the FAA training video talks specifically about the points in your quote. Paraphrasing one of the comments in the video is that vibration IS NOT a problem for the flight crew (10:38 in the video), and there is no chance of a structural failure from vibration, although it states that altering speed and or altitude can significantly reduce vibration.

The vibration section starts at 9:38.

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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 13:41
  #243 (permalink)  
 
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Air Asia A330 just landed in Brisbane with an apparent engine fire out of Cooly. More prayer required for their engineering perhaps.

As an aside, the small amount of r/t I heard from them was all very professional on what would have been a stressful and short sector into an airport they've probably never been to before.
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 13:46
  #244 (permalink)  
 
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Inappropriate crew response, or not, seems to be the prime subject here.
I might agree with this but I would instead place the shoe on another horse

i.e. inappropriate judgements by untrained PPruners.

For all we know the pilots might have been aware of the issues in the video just above and controlled the flight and vibration accordingly. Yet many are second guessing their assessments of the symptoms available to them in the conduct of obtaining safe flight and landing.
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 16:45
  #245 (permalink)  
 
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ATSB : Investigation number: AO-2017-066

FOR REFERENCE ;

ATSB : Investigation number: AO-2017-066

Summary

The ATSB is investigating an engine malfunction involving Airbus A330, registered 9M-XXE, near Carnarvon, Western Australia, on 25 June 2017.

As a result of an in‑flight engine fault, the aircraft was subjected to moderate airframe vibration. The flight crew elected to return to Perth.

As part of the investigation the ATSB will:
•interview personnel involved
•examine the engine damage
•download and analyse data from the flight data and cockpit voice recorders.

A report will be released within several months.
ATSB rate incident as : Serious
Aircraft is still on the ground

Last edited by WingNut60; 3rd Jul 2017 at 18:23.
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 20:43
  #246 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by framer View Post
It does make one wonder about training when pilots think that because the ETOPS area was determined using 310kts that they then have to fly 310 kts. It's tempting to write them off as slack pilots but more likely I think is that their Airlines have not invested in effective training and a misunderstanding that occurs early in their training ( probably as an F/O or S/O) sits there for years without being detected by the checking/training department.


For 25+ yrs our SOP's have said "set xyz speed" during a single engine divert. The FAA document governing ETOPS stated that the operator chooses the speed for it's ETOPS distance/time and the FAA approves the procedure. If the company chooses to select a different speed it goes back to the FAA for approval. Granted, that is to define the ETOPS distance/time. The example given in the FAA document was slowing to allow a higher s/e cruise altitude due to terrain clearance.


Do you have a clarification from the FAA stating which speeds are acceptable to actually use during a divert? I'm curious as to why our SOP's state a specific speed if it's not a FAA requirement. Sometimes the answer is "we choose it." The ETOPS document itself does not specify, or restrict, using any speed except for the speed used to the ETOPS distance/time.
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 21:27
  #247 (permalink)  
 
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The ETOPS document itself does not specify, or restrict, using any speed. It refers to the speed used to establish the ETOPS area but does not specific any speed to be used once the divert starts.
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Old 4th Jul 2017, 02:36
  #248 (permalink)  
 
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Another engine problem with airasia x.. divert to Brisbane after takeoff from gold coast

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel...127baf07018d24
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Old 4th Jul 2017, 03:02
  #249 (permalink)  
 
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Air Asia A330 just landed in Brisbane with an apparent engine fire out of Cooly. More prayer required for their engineering perhaps.
AirAsia flight turned back to Australia after suspected bird strike

Difficult to blame a bird strike on engineering but you go ahead and try...

i.e. inappropriate judgements by untrained PPruners.
There are more than a few posters here who seem to believe that they are the first to worry about vibration, clearly the aircraft manufacturers have not and neither has the regulator when it comes to EDTO times.

Imagine if you actually had to be a professional pilot to post on here, sigh.
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Old 4th Jul 2017, 03:40
  #250 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lomapaseo
For all we know the pilots might have been aware of the issues in the video just above and controlled the flight and vibration accordingly. Yet many are second guessing their assessments of the symptoms available to them in the conduct of obtaining safe flight and landing.
You're missing the point. Whatever the vibration, the engine was stuffed ie couldn't develop thrust. Surely that means land at nearest suitable (I'm not a bus pilot; their procedure may say "land an nearest convenient". Mine certainly doesn't)?.

Originally Posted by Misd again
ETOPS divert is at 320-335 KIAS.
I'm curious. What's your single best range speed?

Last edited by Capn Bloggs; 4th Jul 2017 at 03:52. Reason: BNE ASX only airborne for 22 minutes. Good job.
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Old 4th Jul 2017, 08:09
  #251 (permalink)  
 
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Am current on the same type as the Air Asia aircraft. VMO/MMO is only used to establish the rule distance (in our case, 1272nm for 180 min EDTO). It is NOT a requirement to fly at VMO/MMO during an EDTO diversion; furthermore, the newer types in the fleet (A350/777ER) are based on VMO - 10.

In addition, as VMO on the A330 is 330 KIAS, a diversion at 325-335 KIAS isn't doable. FWIW, our company policy is initially a driftown at Green Dot. Thereafter, flight beyond the nearest 'suitable airport' is only justifiable following consideration of numerous factors related to increased safety. Would have been hard-pressed justifying a decision to continue past Learmonth.

But I wasn't there, so I don't have all the facts.
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Old 4th Jul 2017, 08:21
  #252 (permalink)  
 
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Surely that means land at nearest suitable (I'm not a bus pilot; their procedure may say "land an nearest convenient". Mine certainly doesn't)?.
Yes but you are willfully missing the point that SUITABLE does not have a fixed definition in the context of an IFSD. The PIC makes that determination in the absence of FIXED meaning in the OM.
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Old 4th Jul 2017, 09:41
  #253 (permalink)  
 
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Hi Misd-agin,
Veruka summed it up. The speed you are referring to is only used to determine the area. What you do in practice is up to you. Do you want to drift down slowly at green dot to avoid a mountain range and then cruise at s/e best range speed to arrive with more gas in tanks? Go for it. Do you want to go flat out because there is smoke in the cabin? Go for it.
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Old 4th Jul 2017, 21:06
  #254 (permalink)  
 
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Our SOP says 'set xyz' after diverting. As Veruka stated it appears to be in the range of Vmo minus 15-25(?) kts depending upon the aircraft type.


CA Bloggs - s/e LRC speed isn't provided to us in our performance pages. It is available in the FMC.
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Old 6th Jul 2017, 14:04
  #255 (permalink)  
 
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Christ. Think I'm going to start taking the bus.
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Old 6th Jul 2017, 14:22
  #256 (permalink)  
 
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Think I'm going to start taking the bus.
Plenty of Air Asia pax do!
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Old 7th Jul 2017, 03:56
  #257 (permalink)  
 
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12?? days and still sitting engineless in the rain
Well, actually, it does have one.
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Old 8th Jul 2017, 02:42
  #258 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by WingNut60 View Post
12?? days and still sitting engineless in the rain
Well, actually, it does have one.
And????

I've dealt with a number of AOG recoveries for engine incidents. Two weeks plus is not unusual. In this case the ATSB may have quarantined the aircraft for a few days first before releasing it for repair. Insurance assessors may have wanted to see the aircraft before any repairs were carried out. Engine manufacturer probably wanted to attend and inspect.

Basic engine, reversers, cowlings and all the additional parts that normally get swapped over (starter, IDG, EDPs) will have to be sourced as the ones on the damaged engine will be quarantined for investigation. Maybe additional spares required for any damage found in the wing/pylon. And then all will have to be air freighted from all over the world due to their size (have you seen the shipping containers for these items?) and getting them customs cleared.

Then there is getting the manpower, heavy lifting equipment, specialist tooling, sourcing access/maintenance stands.......and Perth is not exactly local to the main sources for these items with no large aircraft hangar or heavy maintenance equipment. Even dealing with the airport authority to get airside passes and escorts while in the secure area. Local Engineering support and liaison to assist?

Then there maybe additional inspections specified by Airbus/RR and resolving the findings from those inspections.

And they are doing the same for the aircraft in BNE!

You have no idea.
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Old 8th Jul 2017, 10:27
  #259 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by IAW View Post
I won't believe this is real until a bonafide expert such as GT weighs in.

It's in his home turf after all.
GT ??? really lol he snoops around and when nobody tells him anything me makes shit up lol
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Old 8th Jul 2017, 10:30
  #260 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by airdualbleedfault View Post
Passenger said a turbine blade came off, did they google that?
WTF would a passenger know they all make it out to be 100x worse to the media.
Interview 50 pax and get 50 versions
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