Melbourne Air Traffic Control
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Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Brisbane Australia
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Why do Melbourne and Sydney have seperate frequencies to call when departing to a COBT controlled port yet other airports don't? Is this due to a higher rate of traffic movements that would impede the function of the SMC?
When I asked that question awhile back I got told Melbourne was a 'digital tower' and Sydney still had the old strips. No idea if that's still the case.
Today's fun arrivals into Melbourne, us and several others were given 20mins holding. Tigoz infront started to query why they were given 20mins when the notams indicated 10. There wasn't much explanation other than there's now 20 mins holding. I thought it was a fair question seeing we base our fuel figures on the destination requirements....
So what has to happen for the Notam to get updated or at least a hazard alert announced?
An additional 10mins traffic after the Marub6 AKL transition starts to add up.
Today's fun arrivals into Melbourne, us and several others were given 20mins holding. Tigoz infront started to query why they were given 20mins when the notams indicated 10. There wasn't much explanation other than there's now 20 mins holding. I thought it was a fair question seeing we base our fuel figures on the destination requirements....
So what has to happen for the Notam to get updated or at least a hazard alert announced?
An additional 10mins traffic after the Marub6 AKL transition starts to add up.
So is turning from Echo onto Alpha (for 34) and calling ready also bull?
You all do it guys, so don't get too narky when the opposition does it to you.
You all do it guys, so don't get too narky when the opposition does it to you.
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Pushing this task onto the clearance delivery controller works much better for us as they have more time and don't need their eyes out the window as much as the SMC.
Melbourne does use the INTAS system which doesn't use paper strips and Sydney is still on the old paper strip system but will be transitioning to INTAS as well sometime in the near future I believe.
GA Driver, while it might be a fair question it's unlikely the en-route controller you're addressing it to will be able to provide an authoritative answer. You're asking the wrong person.
8.10.3.5 All traffic holding advisories are estimates only and are based on the best information available. Actual holding may differ from the estimate, including to allow for effective traffic management. Operators should use their own judgement on fuel carriage decisions.
8.10.3.5 All traffic holding advisories are estimates only and are based on the best information available. Actual holding may differ from the estimate, including to allow for effective traffic management. Operators should use their own judgement on fuel carriage decisions.
Le Ping,
With respect that is a bull**** response and you know it.
Granted 10 minutes (as discussed in this instance) isnt too much in the grand scheme of things (on face value, but in my aircraft it is close to 1 and a bit tonnes) but seriously where do we conjure extra fuel from if we get unexpected holding?
As an operator there is no rhyme or reason when delays occur, so using your "own judgement" is difficult.
Fuel decisions are made an hour or so prior to departure (in some cases earlier, in some cases later, but I doubt inside 30 minutes in most cases), and these decisions are based on info in many cases a further hour older, at least.
I do appreciate that stuff happens and sometimes delays just happen, but more info when you have the abacus out trying to figure out what your plan is is better than less info, so perhaps a means of telling the enroute guys/gals who are delivering the delaying info to aircraft the background would be helpful.
With respect that is a bull**** response and you know it.
Granted 10 minutes (as discussed in this instance) isnt too much in the grand scheme of things (on face value, but in my aircraft it is close to 1 and a bit tonnes) but seriously where do we conjure extra fuel from if we get unexpected holding?
As an operator there is no rhyme or reason when delays occur, so using your "own judgement" is difficult.
Fuel decisions are made an hour or so prior to departure (in some cases earlier, in some cases later, but I doubt inside 30 minutes in most cases), and these decisions are based on info in many cases a further hour older, at least.
I do appreciate that stuff happens and sometimes delays just happen, but more info when you have the abacus out trying to figure out what your plan is is better than less info, so perhaps a means of telling the enroute guys/gals who are delivering the delaying info to aircraft the background would be helpful.
but seriously where do we conjure extra fuel from if we get unexpected holding?
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Melbourne
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I do appreciate that stuff happens and sometimes delays just happen, but more info when you have the abacus out trying to figure out what your plan is is better than less info, so perhaps a means of telling the enroute guys/gals who are delivering the delaying info to aircraft the background would be helpful.
You must also be aware that Airline management pester Airservices to keep the recommended traffic delay advisory to an absolute minimum to save money.
Traffic holding is only an advisory and I am well versed in that paragraph you recited contained in the jepp. I do appreciate things can change in a blink of an eyelid particularly when it comes to Melbourne weather. The operator (well my operator) plans on known data. So that's why I pose the question. What has to happen to get the notam amended? It's all well and good to say it's up the the operator to take more, but if I start adding more and more for each of the Melbourne factors I'm not sure where we'd stop really.
The reason I mentioned it was because it does happen a bit into Melbourne (additional traffic holding.) Knowing about this earlier rather than later would be helpful, particularly before I've burnt fuel heading towards the holding pattern. Notams or hazard alerts could at least alert us to a problem BEFOREHAND so we can decide if we need to pop into Canberra (shudder) or head back from whence we came.
The reason I mentioned it was because it does happen a bit into Melbourne (additional traffic holding.) Knowing about this earlier rather than later would be helpful, particularly before I've burnt fuel heading towards the holding pattern. Notams or hazard alerts could at least alert us to a problem BEFOREHAND so we can decide if we need to pop into Canberra (shudder) or head back from whence we came.
You must also be aware that Airline management pester Airservices to keep the recommended traffic delay advisory to an absolute minimum to save money.
8.10.3.5 All traffic holding advisories are estimates only and are based on the best information available. Actual holding may differ from the estimate, including to allow for effective traffic management. Operators should use their own judgement on fuel carriage decisions.
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So that's why I pose the question. What has to happen to get the notam amended? It's all well and good to say it's up the the operator to take more, but if I start adding more and more for each of the Melbourne factors I'm not sure where we'd stop really.
The reason I mentioned it was because it does happen a bit into Melbourne (additional traffic holding.) Knowing about this earlier rather than later would be helpful, particularly before I've burnt fuel heading towards the holding pattern. Notams or hazard alerts could at least alert us to a problem BEFOREHAND so we can decide if we need to pop into Canberra (shudder) or head back from whence we came.
The reason I mentioned it was because it does happen a bit into Melbourne (additional traffic holding.) Knowing about this earlier rather than later would be helpful, particularly before I've burnt fuel heading towards the holding pattern. Notams or hazard alerts could at least alert us to a problem BEFOREHAND so we can decide if we need to pop into Canberra (shudder) or head back from whence we came.
I fail to see the point in hazard alerting when all affected aircraft are told of there delay anyway
Ignore the hazardalert or notam question if it really is that hard, but surely this could be passed down the line, 'expect 20min traffic delay!'
I completely understand what you are suggesting and respect your statements about runway changes, go-arounds (I was one of them) stuff ups etc. But its equally as dynamic for us with the changes, we just sit behind a different console however the consequences and decision making is a bit differnt.
A NOTAM and hazard alerts will only be raised if long term delays are expected
We have to find the fuel to cover this question.
Im not trying to finger point at anyone, but the earlier this stuff gets to us the better. A go around is going to effect all those aircraft behind, so why can't this information be passed down? Ive had it from the dep/app controller as it happens but thats usually it.
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And there in lies the problem, its too late by then. You're notifying us of a delay via the enroute controller as we get the star. This is usually 100nm(ish) prior to descent and past the halfway point if I wanted to do a U turn. We need to know about this earlier
Ignore the hazardalert or notam question if it really is that hard, but surely this could be passed down the line, 'expect 20min traffic delay!'
I completely understand what you are suggesting and respect your statements about runway changes, go-arounds (I was one of them) stuff ups etc. But its equally as dynamic for us with the changes, we just sit behind a different console however the consequences and decision making is a bit differnt.
And here is the $64,000.... WHAT is a long term delay? I have had plenty of flow controllers opinions but never found anything that constitutes LONG TERM.
We have to find the fuel to cover this question.
Im not trying to finger point at anyone, but the earlier this stuff gets to us the better. A go around is going to effect all those aircraft behind, so why can't this information be passed down? Ive had it from the dep/app controller as it happens but thats usually it.
Ignore the hazardalert or notam question if it really is that hard, but surely this could be passed down the line, 'expect 20min traffic delay!'
I completely understand what you are suggesting and respect your statements about runway changes, go-arounds (I was one of them) stuff ups etc. But its equally as dynamic for us with the changes, we just sit behind a different console however the consequences and decision making is a bit differnt.
And here is the $64,000.... WHAT is a long term delay? I have had plenty of flow controllers opinions but never found anything that constitutes LONG TERM.
We have to find the fuel to cover this question.
Im not trying to finger point at anyone, but the earlier this stuff gets to us the better. A go around is going to effect all those aircraft behind, so why can't this information be passed down? Ive had it from the dep/app controller as it happens but thats usually it.
The problem with NOTAMs is the extent of delays often doesn't become evident until relatively late in the piece and then it's pointless issuing one - you're already in the air and either have the fuel or you don't. By the time aircraft on the ground who could load more fuel get airborne those delays will be long gone.
You can cop an extra 10 minutes delay just from traffic disposition - if five of you have the same estimate unlucky last gets an extra 10 minute delay.
You can cop an extra 10 minutes delay just from traffic disposition - if five of you have the same estimate unlucky last gets an extra 10 minute delay.
Lookleft, double the traffic advisory fuel is a nice sentiment but not practical in some cases.
I add fuel when I reckon I need to but sometimes I really need to justify in my own mind the trade off between fuel and payload and a couple of tonnes for "mum and the kids" isnt really a reasonable justification in my mind.
Willadvise - why does it matter? Well because the earlier I know the more options I have. In the machine I fly there are not all that many options so the more thinking music I have the better it is.
More to the point, the further I go down track the more options I give away until I get to the point where a diversion to the alternate is the only option. Given we always carry an alternate and we plan to land at the alternate with 2/10th of 5/8th of bugger all fuel it isnt a situation I would willingly put myself into unless I got pushed into a corner.
The earlier I make the decision to pull the pin and divert to somewhere which can more easily handle the machine I fly then the easier my life is, particularly after 14-16 hrs.
I add fuel when I reckon I need to but sometimes I really need to justify in my own mind the trade off between fuel and payload and a couple of tonnes for "mum and the kids" isnt really a reasonable justification in my mind.
Willadvise - why does it matter? Well because the earlier I know the more options I have. In the machine I fly there are not all that many options so the more thinking music I have the better it is.
More to the point, the further I go down track the more options I give away until I get to the point where a diversion to the alternate is the only option. Given we always carry an alternate and we plan to land at the alternate with 2/10th of 5/8th of bugger all fuel it isnt a situation I would willingly put myself into unless I got pushed into a corner.
The earlier I make the decision to pull the pin and divert to somewhere which can more easily handle the machine I fly then the easier my life is, particularly after 14-16 hrs.
I would be surprised if carrying an extra 15 minutes results in a couple of tonnes but I don't know what you are flying. Its not for Mum and the kids either, its for the scenario you are describing. ATC are telling you here that they can't give you notice for extra holding due to various reasons so it is extra contingency fuel that is possibly or even probably going to be required.
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Just to change the subject a little, two questions:
Why do we have to request a GLS?
What is the old tower used for? I noticed there were some lights in it tonight.
Why do we have to request a GLS?
What is the old tower used for? I noticed there were some lights in it tonight.
Why do Melbourne and Sydney have seperate frequencies to call when departing to a COBT controlled port yet other airports don't? Is this due to a higher rate of traffic movements that would impede the function of the SMC?
At Sydney there are discussions that ALL domestic aircraft should call Coordinator 24/7 (not just those with a COBT).
What is the old tower used for? I noticed there were some lights in it tonight.