Fatigue
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Fatigue
All will be more than well aware of the debate about fatigue issues in the Middle East carriers as a result of the accident in Russia.
What are the rostering practices of Australian airlines like? Fatigue an issue? Problems associated should you call sick due fatigue?
Just SLF interest. Thanks in advance.
What are the rostering practices of Australian airlines like? Fatigue an issue? Problems associated should you call sick due fatigue?
Just SLF interest. Thanks in advance.
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See the thread FRMS Battlelines on this topic...
It isn't as big a problem as overseas primarily because:
-Successful NIMBY lobbies putting curfews on airports everywhere
-Domestically you will fly anywhere in less than 5 hours and ultimately passengers aren't interested in arriving somewhere at 0230. Most international flights by Australian Airlines have 3+ crew on board, basically due to the tyranny of distance.
-Union input to EBA's & work rules
- Our flight and duty regulations are not as generous as some overseas jurisdictions
- Middle Eastern Airlines also use 'Augmented Flight Time' which you can't do as an Australian airline.
On saying that I don't believe 900+ hours a year short haul is sustainable rostering over a long period of time either even with all the above considered.
-Successful NIMBY lobbies putting curfews on airports everywhere
-Domestically you will fly anywhere in less than 5 hours and ultimately passengers aren't interested in arriving somewhere at 0230. Most international flights by Australian Airlines have 3+ crew on board, basically due to the tyranny of distance.
-Union input to EBA's & work rules
- Our flight and duty regulations are not as generous as some overseas jurisdictions
- Middle Eastern Airlines also use 'Augmented Flight Time' which you can't do as an Australian airline.
On saying that I don't believe 900+ hours a year short haul is sustainable rostering over a long period of time either even with all the above considered.
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Or the dubious practice of rostering 12 hour duty days, flying 3 sectors with a total of only 5 hours of flight time, but padded out by having 3 hours of sitting around airports between each sector, with no acceptable crew rest areas.
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Or after early starts 4 days in a row, disrupting the circadian rhythm by switching to a late start for the next day and flying 4 sectors in 11 and a half hours with the final sector flying into a CTAF late at night.
The rules for truck drivers in NZ state that they must have 30 mins rest every 5 1/2 hours.
In Australia for the heavy solo truck drivers I think it is 30 mins every 9 hours.
Both have maximum hours of duty ( paperwork/ loading / driving etc) that are the same or less than narrow body regional pilots.
Pilots are regularly doing shifts over 10 hours with no break at unsociable hours day in day out. There is certainly potential here for trouble if the pilots are reluctant to put their hand up and say they are fatigued. The system won't catch it because it is all legal so the sole responsibility to call it rests with the individual. Sound like a good plan?
In my mind it is a regulation issue. The Airlines will always see the limits as a target so the limits must be sensible.
In Australia for the heavy solo truck drivers I think it is 30 mins every 9 hours.
Both have maximum hours of duty ( paperwork/ loading / driving etc) that are the same or less than narrow body regional pilots.
Pilots are regularly doing shifts over 10 hours with no break at unsociable hours day in day out. There is certainly potential here for trouble if the pilots are reluctant to put their hand up and say they are fatigued. The system won't catch it because it is all legal so the sole responsibility to call it rests with the individual. Sound like a good plan?
In my mind it is a regulation issue. The Airlines will always see the limits as a target so the limits must be sensible.
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All will be more than well aware of the debate about fatigue issues in the Middle East carriers as a result of the accident in Russia.
What are the rostering practices of Australian airlines like? Fatigue an issue? Problems associated should you call sick due fatigue?
Just SLF interest. Thanks in advance.
What are the rostering practices of Australian airlines like? Fatigue an issue? Problems associated should you call sick due fatigue?
Just SLF interest. Thanks in advance.
1) Doesn't matter what we think - I'm sure Alan would think that perfectly acceptable, a fine example of 'work/life balance' (I think that's the term these days).
2) Can't be the case anyway - everyone knows aircraft fix themselves.....
2) Can't be the case anyway - everyone knows aircraft fix themselves.....
Thread Starter
The way these questions are posed make it sound very much like a reporter getting info for a story
Airlines in this part of the world do not take fatigue seriously, just look at the way Jetstar has appealed the courts ruling over providing meal and rest breaks in New Zealand. The claim was filed over 6 years ago and despite every court in the land ordering Jetstar to provide the legislated breaks in a days duty they still aren't! We have 3 sector trans tasman, 11.5 hour duties, All with minimum turns, you often don't have time to leave the flight deck for anything other than the walk around.
Take my last roster over 5 days:
1 - 13:30 - 22:30
2 - 13:30 - 22:30
3 - 13:30 - 18:30
4 - 05:30 - 12:45
5 - 19:15 - 05:30
How the hell you are meant to be well rested for that I don't know, I filed a report and the response was that the 'computer said this is not a fatiguing duty'?
Take my last roster over 5 days:
1 - 13:30 - 22:30
2 - 13:30 - 22:30
3 - 13:30 - 18:30
4 - 05:30 - 12:45
5 - 19:15 - 05:30
How the hell you are meant to be well rested for that I don't know, I filed a report and the response was that the 'computer said this is not a fatiguing duty'?
Just out of curiosity guys. Would you be happy if the LAMEs on your aircraft had worked 44 hours straight changing an engine without a rest break?
We run a ceraion of FAID, problem being if you call fatigued then you have to fill in a fatigue checklist and the company runs your roster thrpugh FAID. Ypu then get told that the duty is not fatiguing and you lose a days pay! So now I just call in sickas it is mot worth the hassle, so I guess the companies FMRS is working to reduce fatigue reports.
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FRMS reponsibilities
[... I filed a report and the response was that the 'computer said this is not a fatiguing duty'?[/QUOTE]
Mr Onion, what you have been told obviously shouldn't have been said because:
Your organisation must either have a FRMS SAG or have a standing order of FRMS within the existing SAG (Safety Action Group). You can raise your issue (and the inappropriateness of the company response) through your crew representatives in the SAG.
Alternatively or additionally, you can respond to fatigue and safety reports and notify them that you are not satisfied with the outcome due to reasons XYZ etc.
I hope that helps.
Look up the FRMS Handbook, its online.
Bortman
Mr Onion, what you have been told obviously shouldn't have been said because:
- A computer cannot actually know how you feel (does it know if the neighbour's dog barked all night and kept you awake?)
- According to CASA's FRMS Handbook, using the computer fatigue monitoring tool to tell people they are not fatigued is a no no. It is only there for a NO-GO decision, not for a "you are OK to go" decision.
Your organisation must either have a FRMS SAG or have a standing order of FRMS within the existing SAG (Safety Action Group). You can raise your issue (and the inappropriateness of the company response) through your crew representatives in the SAG.
Alternatively or additionally, you can respond to fatigue and safety reports and notify them that you are not satisfied with the outcome due to reasons XYZ etc.
I hope that helps.
Look up the FRMS Handbook, its online.
Bortman
Bortman,
What you say would be true in any normal world, but...
If there was a robust, truly safety driven safety system in place, that paid the slightest bit of attention to the concerns of the staff, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Your employer has no regard for fatigue management while they continue to bear no legal responsibility for what happens on your watch. You are responsible for your mistakes, and management make it untenable for you to avoid those mistakes by discharging your duty not to fly fatigued; the perfect crime.
What you say would be true in any normal world, but...
If there was a robust, truly safety driven safety system in place, that paid the slightest bit of attention to the concerns of the staff, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Your employer has no regard for fatigue management while they continue to bear no legal responsibility for what happens on your watch. You are responsible for your mistakes, and management make it untenable for you to avoid those mistakes by discharging your duty not to fly fatigued; the perfect crime.
Last edited by Blitzkrieger; 31st Mar 2016 at 09:05.
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The major airlines in Australia couldn't give a flying crap about safety. Lodge as many reports as you like, they will hide them with CASAs tacit approval. If you talk about fatigue, Qantas recently directed 8 Engineers to work 44 hours straight without a rest break. No this is not an April fools joke it was 44 hours straight on an engine change.
We reported it, they wrote back to tell me that they would not carry out an investigation.
We reported it, they wrote back to tell me that they would not carry out an investigation.