QF recall leave without pay pilots
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Discrimination on the basis of race, colour, sex, sexual orientation, age, physical or mental disability, marital status, family or carer responsibilities, pregnancy, religion, etc is illegal.
Nothing about work history.
Nothing about work history.
Last edited by *Lancer*; 11th Feb 2016 at 09:55.
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OK, Lancer/Don (since you can't find it yourself)
From the Act, my bolding and underline:
FWA
Division 3—Workplace rights 340 Protection
(1) A person must not take adverse action against another person: (a) because the other person:
(i) has a workplace right; or
(ii) has, or has not, exercised a workplace right; or
(iii) proposes or proposes not to, or has at any time proposed or proposed not to, exercise a workplace right; or
(b) to prevent the exercise of a workplace right by the other person.
Prospective employees taken to have workplace rights
(3) A prospective employee is taken to have the workplace rights he or she would have if he or she were employed in the prospective employment by the prospective employer.
342 Meaning of adverse action
(1) The following table sets out circumstances in which a person takes
adverse action against another person.
Meaning of adverse action Item Column 1
Adverse action is taken by ...
1 an employer against an
employee
2 a prospective employer against a prospective
employee
Column 2
if ...
the employer:
(a) dismisses the employee; or
(b) injures the employee in his or her employment; or
(c) alters the position of the employee to the employee’s prejudice;; or
(d) discriminates between the employee and other employees of the employer.
So, without looking into case law or precedent and there would be some, this is the answer from the Act. Qantas cannot openly discriminate against Group employees. If they could it would be reflected in their prerequisites, i.e. cannot be currently employed by JQ, Qlink and so on. Thats the law, but as Lookleft points out, enforcing it and proving a contravention it is another thing.
However, the simplest answer is from the Qantas Group Code of Conduct. It is very specific about treating all group employees fairly and applies to JQ, QF, Qlink and EFA. Doesn't need a Court application, a letter to the company secretary will do.
From the Act, my bolding and underline:
FWA
Division 3—Workplace rights 340 Protection
(1) A person must not take adverse action against another person: (a) because the other person:
(i) has a workplace right; or
(ii) has, or has not, exercised a workplace right; or
(iii) proposes or proposes not to, or has at any time proposed or proposed not to, exercise a workplace right; or
(b) to prevent the exercise of a workplace right by the other person.
Prospective employees taken to have workplace rights
(3) A prospective employee is taken to have the workplace rights he or she would have if he or she were employed in the prospective employment by the prospective employer.
342 Meaning of adverse action
(1) The following table sets out circumstances in which a person takes
adverse action against another person.
Meaning of adverse action Item Column 1
Adverse action is taken by ...
1 an employer against an
employee
2 a prospective employer against a prospective
employee
Column 2
if ...
the employer:
(a) dismisses the employee; or
(b) injures the employee in his or her employment; or
(c) alters the position of the employee to the employee’s prejudice;; or
(d) discriminates between the employee and other employees of the employer.
So, without looking into case law or precedent and there would be some, this is the answer from the Act. Qantas cannot openly discriminate against Group employees. If they could it would be reflected in their prerequisites, i.e. cannot be currently employed by JQ, Qlink and so on. Thats the law, but as Lookleft points out, enforcing it and proving a contravention it is another thing.
However, the simplest answer is from the Qantas Group Code of Conduct. It is very specific about treating all group employees fairly and applies to JQ, QF, Qlink and EFA. Doesn't need a Court application, a letter to the company secretary will do.
Last edited by Iron Bar; 11th Feb 2016 at 10:41.
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Interesting quote, and well worth a deeper look.
QF Policy in the past was to not recruit from its own subsidiaries. (i.e. QLink at the time).
Given it has an obligation to take back pilots on LWOP, and also an obligation (albeit a different and maybe more moral one) to take industry placement cadets from QLink with the cost, schedule disruption etc associated with training their replacements, I think it would be very unlikely to see QF add further to its crewing problems by recruiting any more pilots from JQ or QLink than it is obligated to. Why would you?
Interesting times, but if I were at JQ right now, (and not in an MOU) I'd be concentrating on making the most of my career at JQ as I'm very very unlikely to find myself at QF.
Given it has an obligation to take back pilots on LWOP, and also an obligation (albeit a different and maybe more moral one) to take industry placement cadets from QLink with the cost, schedule disruption etc associated with training their replacements, I think it would be very unlikely to see QF add further to its crewing problems by recruiting any more pilots from JQ or QLink than it is obligated to. Why would you?
Interesting times, but if I were at JQ right now, (and not in an MOU) I'd be concentrating on making the most of my career at JQ as I'm very very unlikely to find myself at QF.
At Qlink we've heard similar ever since I started there in 2008. We even heard back then "If you want to join Qantas, start at Rex, because if you start at the link you'll never get in."
In 2007/2008, Qlink had a 40% turnover of it's pilot group. Mainline didn't want them, so some went to J* (not sure how a group company poaching from the link creates any less training debt than if they go into mainline). Most of the rest went to Virgin, Cathay, and Dragonair.
Dragonair and Virgin were rumoured to have stated that Qlink was the best training department for their pilots; at the same time mainline were rumoured to say that TP pilots couldn't mentally transition to jets.
Fast-forward to last year where Qlink lost 40 pilots to Cathay. This year 12 (and counting) to Emirates, with up to 20 more rumoured to go to Cathay. Add a few here and there to Virgin, EFA, and one or two other airlines.
Word on the street is that someone in Qantas HR has (finally) realised that it's better to recruit from within the subsidiaries because 1: They are already a known quantity, with accessible training/personnel records; 2: While there is an extra training debt if we don't hire them they'll go somewhere else. This will result in the same "extra" training debt and we've just lost that corporate experience; 3: If they know that there is a pathway into mainline they MIGHT not look elsewhere.
DIVOSH!
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Oddly enough
Re: Iron Bar vs: IsDon and *Lancer*
What happens, what can be proven to happen, and arrangements conducted behind closed doors are three very different things.
More rumours from Qlink in 2007/2008:
J* was recruiting and plenty from Qlink were applying. The then CP of Qlink was concerned about the flow of Qlink pilots to J* and appealed to Qantas to stop employing Qlink pilots at J*, as it was contributing to our crew shortages.
There was no way that Qantas was going to threaten the success/growth of J* and the CP was told "bad luck".
But...
They worked out an arrangement where J* told the Qlink management who had been successful, and Qlink management then asked if certain pilots (such as Captains, Training captains, etc.) could be given later start dates and that other pilots (FO's, "trouble makers", etc) could be given earlier start dates.
This also backfired as many of the people who'd been given later start dates got start dates with Virgin in the meantime and went there, again resulting in loss of group corporate knowledge.
Again, rumours only but...
DIVOSH!
What happens, what can be proven to happen, and arrangements conducted behind closed doors are three very different things.
More rumours from Qlink in 2007/2008:
J* was recruiting and plenty from Qlink were applying. The then CP of Qlink was concerned about the flow of Qlink pilots to J* and appealed to Qantas to stop employing Qlink pilots at J*, as it was contributing to our crew shortages.
There was no way that Qantas was going to threaten the success/growth of J* and the CP was told "bad luck".
But...
They worked out an arrangement where J* told the Qlink management who had been successful, and Qlink management then asked if certain pilots (such as Captains, Training captains, etc.) could be given later start dates and that other pilots (FO's, "trouble makers", etc) could be given earlier start dates.
This also backfired as many of the people who'd been given later start dates got start dates with Virgin in the meantime and went there, again resulting in loss of group corporate knowledge.
Again, rumours only but...
DIVOSH!
In 2007/2008, Qlink had a 40% turnover of it's pilot group. Mainline didn't want them, so some went to J* (not sure how a group company poaching from the link creates any less training debt than if they go into mainline). Most of the rest went to Virgin, Cathay, and Dragonair.
Dragonair and Virgin were rumoured to have stated that Qlink was the best training department for their pilots; at the same time mainline were rumoured to say that TP pilots couldn't mentally transition to jets.
DIVOSH!
Dragonair and Virgin were rumoured to have stated that Qlink was the best training department for their pilots; at the same time mainline were rumoured to say that TP pilots couldn't mentally transition to jets.
DIVOSH!
Heaps of ex QLink -300/Q400 guys and gals employed into mainline in '07 and '08.
In fact I'd say the majority of those employed around the same time were coming straight off turboprops of various kinds.
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Dr dre
AFAIK almost all of them were Qantas cadets at Qlink. There was a pathway into mainline for Qlink guys, but I doubt more than five or so went before mainline stopped recruiting.
DIVOSH!
AFAIK almost all of them were Qantas cadets at Qlink. There was a pathway into mainline for Qlink guys, but I doubt more than five or so went before mainline stopped recruiting.
DIVOSH!
Nunc est bibendum
......at the same time mainline were rumoured to say that TP pilots couldn't mentally transition to jets.
i suspect that Qantas are fully aware that if they don't consider those from their own subsidiaries then they're likely to lose those people anyway. We have very different managers now compared to 2007- we are two Chief Pilots further on and a complete overhaul of the Flight Ops structure.
Whilst they still take riding instructions from above, I think they know that not taking our own is cutting off our nose to spite our face.
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uspect that Qantas are fully aware that if they don't consider those from their own subsidiaries then they're likely to lose those people anyway. We have very different managers now compared to 2007- we are two Chief Pilots further on and a complete overhaul of the Flight Ops structure.
Whilst they still take riding instructions from above, I think they know that not taking our own is cutting off our nose to spite our face.
Whilst they still take riding instructions from above, I think they know that not taking our own is cutting off our nose to spite our face.
What a bunch of wankers the Q group is. At war with itself, no wonder the competitors are doing so well. If they worked together Q, J, and QL then they would be a much stronger and cohesive group.
Thank God that the infantile bias that existed within Qantas Flt Ops has all but disappeared. Once any pilot has been minced through the training department the difference is purely individual and not correlated in any way due to their background. There is a generational change at QF and with that I for one of many will be very happy to see some new eager pilots no matter their previous experience. Your first operational seat will be on the 737, where the training is excellent. No one within the training section cares from where you came.
Nunc est bibendum
G'day Haugteny. When are we talking about here? When did your fellow crew member leave QLink? We haven't employed since January 2009 so it's hard to say that mainline flight ops have something against the Link crew.
Perhaps they were still avoiding hiring Link crew in the 2000's (although I seem to fly with quite a few ex Link crew) but the rumoured attitude proffered by Di Vosh regarding the transition of prop drivers to jets isn't something that was prevalent in 2007.
In terms of our hiring practises, that's the change I'm talking about now. New management, new attitude. It's not perfect but it's a truck load better than it used to be.
Perhaps they were still avoiding hiring Link crew in the 2000's (although I seem to fly with quite a few ex Link crew) but the rumoured attitude proffered by Di Vosh regarding the transition of prop drivers to jets isn't something that was prevalent in 2007.
In terms of our hiring practises, that's the change I'm talking about now. New management, new attitude. It's not perfect but it's a truck load better than it used to be.
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Keg
but the rumoured attitude proffered by Di Vosh regarding the transition of prop drivers to jets isn't something that was prevalent in 2007.
I'd also point out that any bias (perceived or real) from Qantas to QantasLink is more likely to be heard by QantasLink pilots than by Qantas pilots.
I'll also point out that I'm not saying that this was Qantas policy at the time. But it was the PERCEPTION of Qantas policy.
And as they say, perception is reality.
DIVOSH!
Sounds like a bit of group think goin on there, ive never heard any trace of that idea in nearly 20yrs in mainline and would suggest its hogswash. Recruits are valued from all backgrounds and I would even say that link pilots would be particularly valued as we know of the demanding flying undertaken.
Nunc est bibendum
Sure Di Vosh. I've got no doubt that was the perception. Like many things though, the perception and the reality were two completely different things.
An opinion sincerely and genuinely held can still be wrong if it's based on incorrect or poorly examined information.
An opinion sincerely and genuinely held can still be wrong if it's based on incorrect or poorly examined information.
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Well that's a wrap ladies and gentlemen. Looks like from May this year, Qantas Pilots on LWOP will be returning to the mothership in stages.
The Jetstar dream is over.
The Jetstar dream is over.
With the return of all the LWOP pilots any Jetstar pilot who thinks they have a reasonable chance of their application being successful into mainline are also dreaming.
As a captain at Jetstar I'm certainly astounded at how many FO's have expressed an interest in going to Qantas. The young twenty something cadets, to some degree I can understand but it seems everyone I fly with is talking about at least putting in an application. Can't help but think many will not display the drive that will be expected at the interview given the step back in role.
I guess the age of the guys in the left seat at Jetstar is in no small part a factor on top of the slow down in expansion. Sort of a double edged sword. I feel pretty lucky to have got in to Jetstar when I did.
As for Qantas not hiring guys from Qlink around 07/08, I was there and there were plenty of guys that I used to work with that got the nod at that time.
Great news Qantas is hiring again and I wish all those who get in great success. Even for those that do not get in, if there is further demand for skilled pilots within our industry then we all benefit come EBA negotiation time.
I guess the age of the guys in the left seat at Jetstar is in no small part a factor on top of the slow down in expansion. Sort of a double edged sword. I feel pretty lucky to have got in to Jetstar when I did.
As for Qantas not hiring guys from Qlink around 07/08, I was there and there were plenty of guys that I used to work with that got the nod at that time.
Great news Qantas is hiring again and I wish all those who get in great success. Even for those that do not get in, if there is further demand for skilled pilots within our industry then we all benefit come EBA negotiation time.
That is interesting Willie
The last Jetstar EA must have shown the JQ pilots that they are unlikely to be paid as much as comparable pilots in Australia. From the outside it looked like a reasonable deal, but there is nothing left to bargain with (crew meals) to increase the salary without a huge amount if goodwill from the company.
It's now obvious that Jetstar pilots will not fly Qantas' aircraft, as many expected. It also appears that Jetstar probably won't get many (if any) more. Which puts anybody who is not close to a left seat now, in a fairly unattractive career position. And if they wanted a wide body position to ease the burden of JQ Shorthaul, the next aircraft to be delivered, the A320neo, will be able to do some of what the 787 does now, which must put the 787 fleet number under consideration. QF rumours aside.
Crazy industry. Don't blame them at all.
The last Jetstar EA must have shown the JQ pilots that they are unlikely to be paid as much as comparable pilots in Australia. From the outside it looked like a reasonable deal, but there is nothing left to bargain with (crew meals) to increase the salary without a huge amount if goodwill from the company.
It's now obvious that Jetstar pilots will not fly Qantas' aircraft, as many expected. It also appears that Jetstar probably won't get many (if any) more. Which puts anybody who is not close to a left seat now, in a fairly unattractive career position. And if they wanted a wide body position to ease the burden of JQ Shorthaul, the next aircraft to be delivered, the A320neo, will be able to do some of what the 787 does now, which must put the 787 fleet number under consideration. QF rumours aside.
Crazy industry. Don't blame them at all.
Last edited by Fatguyinalittlecoat; 6th Mar 2016 at 06:25.