Jetstar loading issues

[ANCDU]

Flying the same route, the Jetstar ac have been of a 2000 vintage, (one even had the signage in German and English, so you know where that came from) while the Tiger ac has been either a 2003 or a 2013 vintage...

A bit off topic (apologies) but it got me wondering about the current fleet ages of the big 4 in Australia. Just comparing fleet ages of like types. I know other types are used domestically too, just a basis for comparison.

QANTAS. 737 NG. (69 Aircraft).......7.8 year.
Virgin Australia 737 NG (77 Aircraft).......6.1 years.
TigerAir. A320 (15 Aircraft).......6.0 years.
Jetstar. A320. (53 Aircraft).......6.1 years.

I did notice that in addition Jetstar has 6 x A321 at an average fleet age of 9.4 years!!! They must be using them a lot into OOL! Looks like Tiger has the youngest fleet in Australia.....just.

Apologies for the thread drift!

[underfire]

The RWY16 high speed exit Gulf has been NOTAMed out of service from time to time recently, so the crew may have actually deliberately kept their speed up on the runway. In doing so, minimised runway occupancy times, and thus reduced the potential of a GA.

Understood, but no, the ac braked very, very hard to try to make it....(to the point where a pair of eye glasses flew forward)

It was a mistake..

on ages, one Tiger ac was a 2015 A320 w/sharklets...

[wheels_down]

You would need to float quite a bit to miss GOLF. It is easier for Jetstar to go through to JULIET as they are on the far side of T4, plus you can be waiting at ALPHA intersection for a bit due traffic.

Probaly a new FO or never landed at Melboune. 16 will catch you out as it slopes down and some tend to float for a bit.

[Bula]

Are we seriously entertaining this was a mistake.

Underfire, It is not a mistake to take a perfectly serviceable taxiway.

So what MEL's were on the aircraft? Was the airport approach aid serviceable? What are the companies SOP's in that case? What weight was the aircraft? What was the outside environment and wind conditions.

Bloody lounge chair you know whats.

Far out... Now back to the topic.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

PappaJo it's sounds like the safety culture there isn't that bad seeing as these things are being reported, it's when incidents like this aren't reported and things are quiet that safety culture should begin to be questioned

Don't forget J* used to have a culture of not reporting - the YMML TOGA-Tap incident from about 4-5 years ago was one of a string not reported until much later than the rules require.

[mppgf]

Poppajo,

Thats four. The first two incidents were the "apart from these two" that was previously under discussion. Also they occurred in October not November.
For someone who's lost count you don't seem to have much information to back that up. If It seems like I'm being defensive it's only because people like you make grand sweeping statements that have no real basis in fact.
Stating you have lost count of all the incidents Jetstar has had in the last 24 months is definately a sweeping statement.
Finally,

"Plus you have the obvious internal problem with the safety culture of the carrier where these issues usually originate"

Thats another grand sweeping statement and what the F@ck does that even mean ?

[wanabee777]

Originally Posted by wanabee777

Regulatory agencies, worldwide, have been remiss in establishing load auditing procedures in order to insure aircraft weight and balance calculations are correct.

Department of Transportation inspectors, using portable scales, conduct random tests on tractor/trailers.

Couldn't the same inspection techniques be applied to aircraft for gross weight and C/G analysis?

Originally Posted by Wunwing

wanabee.

Clearly you have never been involved or have seen a large aircraft being weighed? I'm not sure that the pax would take kindly to being forced to stay on board for the extended process or that the pax that are delayed by it for the rest of the aircraft day would be too impressed either.

Wunwing

No, I've never seen a weight and balance check being conducted on any aircraft, let alone a large one. From your remark, I assume it must be a long and drawn out process.

As an alternative, how about this suggestion?

On a random basis, authorities conduct a load audit after the aircraft blocks in at destination.

I'm not saying weighing the aircraft with scales would be necessary. Simply conduct a passenger count during deplaning along with a cargo weight check for each bin. The results would be compared to the airline's AWABS paperwork for that flight.



Is that reasonable?

[Lookleft]

Is that reasonable?

No, because if there is a problem at the start of the flight why would taking it into the air and finding it at the end of the flight be any safer? The whole issue of loading problems started when they took away the head count requirement to help OTP. Now they have bought the headcount back. OTP is someone elses performance indicator, its definitely not mine.

Don't forget J* used to have a culture of not reporting - the YMML TOGA-Tap incident from about 4-5 years ago was one of a string not reported until much later than the rules require.

How wrong do you want to be in one statement? The incident was reported at the time it occurred. It was the subsequent discovery of the GPWS warning off FOQA that wasn't passed on and neither was there a requirement to provide additional information. The incident is now 8 years ago as it occurred in 2007. What were the other incidents that went unreported? If they went unreported how do you know they occurred?

[wanabee777]

Quote:
Is that reasonable?

Originally Posted by Lookleft

No, because if there is a problem at the start of the flight why would taking it into the air and finding it at the end of the flight be any safer?

Better to validate the weight data record at block in v.s. doing it through the process of an accident investigation.

As it is now, airline load planning personnel and associated AWABS programs have little, if any, independent official oversight that I'm aware of.

If nothing else, trend analysis would be beneficial in determining if an individual airline's load planning procedures are performing in accordance with accepted standards.

JMHO

[Cavalry Charge]

For all the Arm Chair Professionals,

It takes A LOT to put an A320 aircraft out of the envelope. You can put the THS in an A320 at the opposite end of the scale and its still flyable. 16 pax spread out (most likely) evenly isn't going to cause any drama and lets face it, its very unlikely they were all in the back rows. Just FYI.

Also, these loading issues are common occurrences. Virgin had an incident a few years ago where a 737 departed Bali with 1600kg of weight (bags) unaccounted for. A similar time to one of their A330 departing Perth with 1300kg of cargo not even manifested (which in my opinion is more dangerous and I'm not referring to weight issues). The ATSB website has many similar events with all airlines, not just Jetstar.
I do agree with the guys point of view in regards to cheap systems but what are other carriers using that Jetstar aren't? Or is it that these occurrences just go unnoticed?

Jetstar pilots do their own weight and balance calculations on an iPad program but they only feed in the data that is handed to them by the ground crews.
I have heard that Qantas and Virgin pilots have this done for them but I'm not sure if this is the case, just what I heard. Maybe an insider can confirm this (and a REAL insider, not an arm chair troller). But if it is true, maybe this may be where a problem could lie. Just a thought.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...-2014-110.aspx

[Cavalry Charge]

[QUOTE=underfire;9206927]Understood, but no, the ac braked very, very hard to try to make it....(to the point where a pair of eye glasses flew forward)

It was a mistake..

I would bet my nut on that Golf was NOTAMed out so there was a chance they were trying for Echo but didn't achieve it so that rolled thru to Juliet.

Not a mistake..