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Qantas Fleet Order Speculation

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Qantas Fleet Order Speculation

Old 6th Jun 2015, 02:46
  #341 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
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What other airlines in the world get paid overtime based on sector length?

Overtime is great if you are on an aircraft that does it but 4 man 18 TODs are probably less painful than 3 to Japan or Shanghai. 2.5 hours of watching a movie then a long sleep on the next break is hard work. Yes jet lag sucks but it isn't worth double time compared to 2 man BOC ops. Not by any stretch.

This shift will mean that ULR flying will be most likely to be more junior. So in the cage you will get DFW et al and at the top regionals like Singapore and Manila. Or people can bid to go to places they might want to stay at as opposed to which one pays the best. A novel concept I know. How is a flatter pay structure a bad thing? New yes bad no.

I reckon it is a good deal. I think the AIPA negotiatiors have done a really good job in the circumstances.
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Old 6th Jun 2015, 02:51
  #342 (permalink)  
Keg

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fish


Can't see how the removal of ALL overtime and ALL night credits on Ultra Long Haul flights is wise.

Perhaps reduce it somewhat and compromise.

But to give it all away for nothing and thinking your smart and sticking it to the old guys is even sillier.
It wasn't given away for nothing. We got a higher hourly rate which flows through to shorter haul flying, sims, EPs, MDC trips, etc. A 787 pilot will earn the same credits for a MNL flight as they do now but be paid approx 15% more. Similar for CGK, SIN, NRT, and anything where the tour of duty is less than about 14-15 hours.

I think O/T extends to planned tour of duty too so any delays now get O/T. A SYD- HKG delayed by an hour gets ADP. Previously it wouldn't have attracted a cent*. Similarly any ULH stuff gets the same as well.

But to give it all away for nothing and thinking your smart and sticking it to the old guys is even sillier.
I disagree that it's being given away for nothing and despite the comments of some others, I'd suggest the majority don't see this as 'sticking it to the old guys'. The motivation is much more personal.


(* I need to double check this O/T rule but that was how it was explained to me).
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Old 6th Jun 2015, 02:58
  #343 (permalink)  
 
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What if all the gives don't secure a future?

What if all it achieves is a jet for jet replacement ? What if there is zero growth ?
That's a lose lose situation.

Just removes terms and conditions from current crews. Got news for you too.

Won't touch the senior pilots who your trying to stick it too.
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Old 6th Jun 2015, 02:58
  #344 (permalink)  
 
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Another race to the bottom fear campaign being touted on PPRuNe - so why are Pilot T&Cs always dropping?? due to ever increasing CEO bonuses or maybe it's because the industry is always in flux

Nothing like egotistical fools measuring their self worth with a big "maybe" promotion. No thought given to the long game.
What long game are you talking about - we'll just sit tight on our T&Cs - maybe just tweak a bit around the edges as you suggest and we'll still get aeroplanes and will get the flying - good luck with that - QFI was anaemic 12 months ago with fuel prices higher, a capacity dump by overseas carriers and partnerships being signed left right and centre whilst QF Intl shrunk. Things are getting better now but those headwinds will continue again at some point or will be in another form - not company generated spin but reality - I'm not after promotion, I'd rather the company was positioned for that situation so all pilots can keep there jobs at that point.

Just like those that rushed to JQ to chase a promotion and wonder what the hell they were thinking.
Yes but they did and that genii is out of the bottle - go on keep pretending it isn't

Zero promotions have been assured. Zero. No guarantees it's not just a 747 replacement. As others have suggested No top up pay protections like the cabin crew have if they get busted to QCCA.
Correct - no promotions can ever be assured except through growth - A new type will definitely be a 744 replacement and given the age of some of the A330s and 50 options on the 787 it may even replace the A330 in time. I prefer to deal in facts today which say that AIPA has spent time getting the best deal they can for a new type.

Big sweeping statements, dumbing down conditions and falling hook line and sinker for the company spin.
Typical adversarial approach to the company and believe they're just here to screw you down - good on you - the primary drivers in Qantas and any company are always commercial and if the IR spin doctors can get a strategy to negotiate off that back of that then no doubt they will. I reckon the tight timeline of this is purely market driven to coincide with the full year results and not to rush a YES vote by ignorant pilots - you can have your opinion that it's all about robbing you of your overtime - fact is the company wants costs to come out - labour costs are about the only lever they can pull in this area - the investors will not stomach a 787 purchase with pilot's on 744/A380 terms - there will have to be a give - that's just reality, wish it wasn't but it is.


Wayne Kearns is correct. Pilots really are stupid.
WK getting quoted again as some mastermind pulling the strings here.


I'm not suggesting that the staus Quo stays. Agree the PSN is a good idea, so is rationalising overtime to a more reasonable level.
So have a bet each way then. Advocate some change but perhaps not as must as what is on offer - if that's the case go ahead and vote NO and see what AIPA can renegotiate on your behalf, if they get the chance.

I still believe you should get SOME overtime for doing an 18 hour plus TOD
.
Why because you've always had it?? look around at other airline contracts and see what they are paid in terms of overtime and see what you can negotiate on that basis. Also ask the crews that do 2 or 3 pilot back of the clock duties what that kind of fatiguing duty is worth to them - you'll get a different answer to yours on what deserves what - in the end it only matters what you can negotiate with the company - if you want overtime after X hours then you can probably have a lower hourly rate instead.

Giving away overtime in its ENTIRETY AND night credits is gifting everything in a good operating environment, when the macro economic times are just improving for Qantas International.
Yes the fact is the company is getting some tailwinds - fact is this will allow the company to purchase aeroplanes to replace the 744 and maybe the A330 - fact is ULH flying on long thin routes with a new type will probably require additional crews as frequencies will probably go up - if they don't go up then so be it, in that case you'll be flying less pax around than the 744/380 did - do you the think in that case the company will pay the same as a 744/380 pilot for carrying less pax and therefore producing less revenue?? When 777-8x arrives it'll carry more pax than the 789, but they won't arrive in QF colours if we're still getting around paying double time or more for the last few hours of the sector. Fact is Pilot salaries do impact on the profitability of routes - Networks don't model a route and say No-Go based on the CEOs bonus, but they will pull off a route or not start one based on aircraft operating variables such as crew costs including hotels, allowances and pay. We work in a low margin business where EVERY cost counts. The company 'spins' this line because it's reality - I reckon hold the line as much as possible and argue the toss over keeping as much as possible in our T&Cs - but the world is also turning.


Conditions once given away are NEVER returned.
True - can you live with what's on offer though? Hold the line if you can but see where the momentum is taking things and get the best deal you can.

But when pilots have a do it at any cost mentality they are easily fooled.
Farm sold for nothing but a glimmer of hope.
No ones selling the farm here - take a look at the deal on offer in it's entirety if you're actually in the game and not some bystander - if you are the latter then take your 'fear campaign' somewhere else.

If I were Qantas I'd use this weak/give anything away mindset to totally rip apart terms and conditions for when the A320 Neos replace the 737.
Start talking to Network/Cobham,JQ and get QF pilots rushing to the door to offer pay cuts to secure the 90 plus orders.
If I were Qantas and couldn't get the deal I wanted I'd set up a greenfields international operation and drive a wedge through the pilot ranks that way - the FWA is still relatively untested in this area - who wants to press to test on that scenario? Fact is no one on this forum is a senior decision maker in Qantas, so it's all BS. The domestic 'fight' that you preview is a possibility but it is for another day - doing a deal for the LHEBA does not preclude any number of future deals being more aggressively contested as a pilot group.
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Old 6th Jun 2015, 03:02
  #345 (permalink)  
 
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Better than having Jets leave with NO replacement isn't fearcampaign?
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Old 6th Jun 2015, 03:03
  #346 (permalink)  
 
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It's not all about you

Won't touch the senior pilots who your trying to stick it too.
Newsflash Fearcampaign

It's not actually all about you.....
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Old 6th Jun 2015, 03:29
  #347 (permalink)  
 
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If the company could start a greenfields operation it would have done it.

The Liberals could not touch the fair work act as they were scared it would be seen as a return to workchoices. Political suicide despite the push from BHP,RIO, Qantas and the business council of Australia.

They tried and failed during the lockout.

Glad some believe that Qantas has had a sudden change of heart.

Trade away hard fought terms and conditions and the new jet orders will suddenly flow, new destinations appear, codeshares reduced as the pilots are on board finally.
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Old 6th Jun 2015, 04:42
  #348 (permalink)  
 
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Trade away hard fought terms and conditions and the new jet orders will suddenly flow, new destinations appear, codeshares reduced as the pilots are on board finally.
It's not about trading away anything, it's about bringing the black book away from a bygone era and making it more relevant with todays competitors and operations.
It's very hard to argue that under the current award you can have two 380's from two different companies departing Sydney, fly 14+ hours and then have QF watch as overtime kick in as you enter the Bubin hold, then have your crew costs blow out exponentially for 40+min then again for another 25min as you drag your arse around the trombone at 230/210/180kts. Whilst your competitors, partner, whatever, costs are constant.

What appears on offer is purely a flatter cost in ULR operations, but with a higher hourly rate.

If the company could start a greenfields operation it would have done it.
How do you know this isn't going on in the Background just incase individuals like you, however unlikely, do get your way on a NO vote?

I still believe you should get SOME overtime for doing an 18 hour plus TOD
Why? where is the business case for it? No other airline does it. Maybe they should do just because we are nice guys!

What if all the gives don't secure a future?
What if all it achieves is a jet for jet replacement ? What if there is zero growth ?
That's a lose lose situation.
Then thats the risk we take. But I can Guarantee if it doesn't get voted up then the points you make won't be an issue. All that will matter is how good your CV is.

Won't touch the senior pilots who your trying to stick it too.
No one is trying to "stick it" to the senior pilots, all we want is to have the opportunity to be senior one day too. No future aircraft and that opportunity will be gone.

I can't see how a crappy deal is good for the next generation.
It's hardly a crappy deal. Whilst I grant you it's not as good a deal for the senior ones in rank on that type who won't be able to put their fat collective noses in the trough and feed themselves silly on overtime. I would hardly call it a crappy deal for the rest of us.

Agree the super seniority system has to go. The PSN system is fair and equitable. That's not the point.
At least you have said something that probably is agreed upon by most.

Wayne Kearns is correct. Pilots really are stupid.
Whilst I'm not confident enough to quote everything WK may or may not have said in the past, and I'm sure he will be corrected me if I'm wrong, but I am pretty sure that comment was pertinent to pilots that can't recognise a good opportunity when it presents itself.

But good luck with you fear campaign, I'm sure it's working out well for you so far.

Last edited by OnceBitten; 6th Jun 2015 at 05:46.
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Old 6th Jun 2015, 04:42
  #349 (permalink)  
 
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Hmmmm....

Didn't we sign an EBA years ago to "get a seat" at the Jetstar negotiating table.

How'd that work out?
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Old 6th Jun 2015, 05:02
  #350 (permalink)  
 
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This EA isn't about dwelling on the past, it's about moving forward.

If we think that way and worry about past dealings we will just consign ourselves to industrial history.
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Old 6th Jun 2015, 05:19
  #351 (permalink)  
 
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Oncebitten,

Please read my earlier posts. I'm sorry you have trouble understanding me so I'll make it clear.

I'm not arguing for A380/747 pay for the 787, nor the same overtime triggers that crews currently get on a DFW.

The proposed deal gives you zero hours.

I'm suggesting a mid point be achieved where you get some compensation for Ultra Long Haul routes.

You would NOT get the huge multipliers as you do now(your piggy in the trough scenario)

You'd still have incentive to fly these routes, it just would not be as exorbitant.

If the new type has PSN, then no one will snout desirable trips exclusively anyway!

Thats what a compromise deal is. Pilots still get some incentive and the company makes a saving and gets a unit cost reduction too.

However the current deal wipes it to zero. That's poor negotiating.

The removal of night credits mean that pilots effectively do another one to two 4-5 day trips a roster for free.

Night credits are not a monetary payment but a duty credit that acknowledges the fatigue associated with back of the clock operations.

Thankfully they are still there for 2/3 pilot ops, although sadly reduced.

Look at the low levels of sick leave on overtime patterns.
Watch that change if the rate is zero. That's Qantas problem so perhaps AIPA may have a position to change this once the company works out it's costing them more than a few hours overtime.

We are in agreement on the PSN proposition, but for existing fleets, that is separate from this EA.

If it is a 60% threshold in rank, on type, then it is a fair and democratic process. Other hauls and fleets can pontificate what should happen, however, thankfully it's down to the people to decide on that fleet/rank.
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Old 6th Jun 2015, 05:54
  #352 (permalink)  
 
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The proposed deal gives you zero hours.

I'm suggesting a mid point be achieved where you get some compensation for Ultra Long Haul routes.
I don't understand where you are coming from in arguing you deserve overtime for ULR flying when non of the competitors pay it? Also considering 50% of that time is in the bunk?
To me it's something from a bygone era.

I think the higher hourly rate distributed over all sectors instead of just being lumped at the tail end of ULR sectors for a few is a much fairer way of distributing remuneration and spreading your cost base.

JMHO.
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Old 6th Jun 2015, 06:17
  #353 (permalink)  
 
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Some competitors also pay more too.

China Southern pay 787 Captains $20,000 a month AFTER tax USD.Thats $312,000 per year NET.

Had night credits on ULH routes been retained and only overtime given away then perhaps it might be a better sell.

However both overtime and night credits have been given away. So you'll get less money and work much harder than you would had it been on 767 rates.

Your trying to compare it to an A380 baron. You should be looking at how it compares on 767 rates.

50% time in the bunk presumes one sleeps the entire time.Anyone who flies ULH knows this is not always possible depending on body clock e.t.c
It's a simplistic view.
Your still in a F*&^&% aeroplane for 14-18 hours.
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Old 6th Jun 2015, 06:22
  #354 (permalink)  
 
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The removal of night credits mean that pilots effectively do another one to two 4-5 day trips a roster for free.
More mis-information!! The MGH has been reduced to 145 hours with planning at 155 hours to account for this. That means that you will not be spending ANY more time at work than you currently would under the WD for the range of flying suggested of this aircraft (a mix of current or similar 330, 747 and 380 trips).


The other mis-truth being sprouted at the moment is this gem that without overtime and night credits there will be no incentive (or compensation) to bid for ULR flying. What BS!! Its called density. The incentive is you can do more of your required hours flying in less amount of days = MORE DAYS OFF AT HOME (some people may even call this "lifestyle" . Pretty much all SH folks and anyone flying ULR for any of our major competitors understand this concept. (Caveat - Clearly there are some variables here like route frequency and total time away from base but these occur with or without overtime and is where MDC protection kicks in) .
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Old 6th Jun 2015, 06:58
  #355 (permalink)  
 
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Some competitors also pay more too.

China Southern pay 787 Captains $20,000 a month AFTER tax USD.Thats $312,000 per year NET.
China Southern do not pay overtime for ULR's and night credits, they pay a premium to attract talent. QF have a wealth of national talent to choose from.
If you think that is what you want i'm sure you know where to apply.

[quote]
Had night credits on ULH routes been retained and only overtime given away then perhaps it might be a better sell.

However both overtime and night credits have been given away. So you'll get less money and work much harder than you would had it been on 767 rates

Your trying to compare it to an A380 baron. You should be looking at how it compares on 767 rates. /quote]
That's rubbish, worst case scenario is MDC will still apply to the pattern.
At $300 an hour that is substantially more than a top ranked 767 Capt received in the past, and he/she never received any significant overtime. I also noticed you failed to mention that on medium to shorter routes you will work the same and get paid more, so for you it really is all about the overtime. The 787 has the scope to cover both 767 and 380 flying distance wise, so to disregard the pluses in pay to the medium style flying is cherry picking for your own agenda.

50% time in the bunk presumes one sleeps the entire time.Anyone who flies ULH knows this is not always possible depending on body clock e.t.c
It's a simplistic view.

Your still in a F*&^&% aeroplane for 14-18 hours.
But again I say, so do your competitors.

So I put it to you again Mr FearCampaign, in front of this audience I will ask you this again,

Why does your company need to pay a premium for you to do the same ULR job that your direct competitors/Partners/whatever don't pay?


Anyway, I'm off to do my non-overtime ULR.
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Old 6th Jun 2015, 07:03
  #356 (permalink)  
 
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Explain to me how night credits accurately reflects BOC operations. It doesn't. I would like to you to give me a rational of why ULH should attract a premium?
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Old 6th Jun 2015, 07:05
  #357 (permalink)  
 
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Overall I think the proposed changes are at face value a fair replacement for a B767 replacement. I also agree with the chance to vote on Cage Roster.

I can however see if it's also a replacement for other AC in the Longhaul Fleet that many more pilots are affected than the normal process, eg. b747- A380 was just a adjustment in Pay %.

The argument that just because other Airlines don't have overtime QF should'nt is weak. Other Airlines in ULH ops also have 2x Capt and 2x FO's or (1x FO,1x SO) on the flight deck but QF choose not too so I guess that should change also...

I'm sure the current batch of Demoted Capts and FO's would welcome that change in base pay and not worry as much about OT. The fact is OT has always made up a large part of take home pay regardless of how you calculate it and define why you got it.

The cage would just spread it around to all pilots.

I think you'll find most pilots are lucky to get to sleep once in the bunk for about 3-4 hours. That's your total sleep for possibly a 20hr stretch. I think that warrants extra payments via some means.
Call it OT or 'Life Shortening Payment' , I don't care but as fearcampaign said -Your still in a f#%ing aeroplane for 14-18hrs....

FFRTAS
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Old 6th Jun 2015, 07:06
  #358 (permalink)  
 
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You privileged mob really need to get your stories straight. It was not that long ago that you were selling an argument in defence of accusations of A380 Cptbeing on 500k. You all ran around quoting base pay and defending your renumeration against other airlines.
Now the musics stopped and you are having the largess that bulks out your pay packets cut back all starts to get revealed.
Night credits sim credits overtime for doing a long trip........maybe the original argument over A380 Capts package wasn't far wrong.
If you are going to compare apples with apples you mob have to come clean with your total package.....including extras, scheduling limits etc.
Quoting base pay and comparing it to other airlines that have very little in the way of allowances poor flight and duty limits etc is a false argument.
I worked for another countries national airline $1us DTA no overtime or night credits, 4 crew 24 hour duty,back to back US returns from Asia.
I'd shut up and accept whatever I could get if I was you, your still better of than most of the rest of the industry.
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Old 6th Jun 2015, 07:24
  #359 (permalink)  
 
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Yes other airlines carry 2 CPT's and 2 FO's so that's very relevant.
EK and the USA carriers combined.

On a DFW-SYD you've usually been up for a lot of the day before you then do a 20 hour duty at night.

You don't necessarily get to take a break when you want to take a sleep.
Agree that your lucky to get 3-4 hours actual sleep when people are not banging around in the cabin and keeping you awake.

3-4 hours is not a nights sleep in a 20 hour duty.
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Old 6th Jun 2015, 07:26
  #360 (permalink)  
 
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RU/16 No one is defending A380 CPT pay.
Perhaps take some reading lessons. No one has mentioned A380 CPT pay regarding the 787.
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