How serious is a cargo fire?
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ANCPER
No I'm not a firey, but know a guy who was. I do recall him telling me about skin penetrating devices and he worked in Australia. So some ports may have that capability.
I don't know the ARFFS capability of all the airports between Australia and London. But what I'm saying is where possible and that includes if time is available and there is no greater urgency. To utilise the fire commanders advice.
Like, I said. They can use infrared so they can pin point a source of heat and they can pump suppressant into a cargo hold pretty quickly and immediately see via infrared if the fire looks contained.
No I'm not a firey, but know a guy who was. I do recall him telling me about skin penetrating devices and he worked in Australia. So some ports may have that capability.
I don't know the ARFFS capability of all the airports between Australia and London. But what I'm saying is where possible and that includes if time is available and there is no greater urgency. To utilise the fire commanders advice.
Like, I said. They can use infrared so they can pin point a source of heat and they can pump suppressant into a cargo hold pretty quickly and immediately see via infrared if the fire looks contained.
Tankengine,
SLF and a curious one here. I had the same idea about vacating the runway and having steps standing by if fire and smoke is not detected. As an SLF I am more concerned about a wheelchair for life though than burn on an aircraft. Hence I like to participate on a training evacuation to get the feeling.
Rwy in Sight
SLF and a curious one here. I had the same idea about vacating the runway and having steps standing by if fire and smoke is not detected. As an SLF I am more concerned about a wheelchair for life though than burn on an aircraft. Hence I like to participate on a training evacuation to get the feeling.
Rwy in Sight
Aero club bar talk? Absolutely!
Do what your SOPs say.
This is a double bind problem: Evacuate, with concomitant injuries, and the fire turns out to have been relatively minor and easily controlled by the Firies: "You overreacted Bloggs!"
Don't evacuate and the fire turns out to be serious, leading to loss of life."You were negligent Bloggs".
What kills people in emergencies is failure of imagination, as in the Black Saturday fires in Victoria. "Who would have thought? Who could have known?" those are the refrains you hear afterwards when that happens.
Do what your SOPs say.
This is a double bind problem: Evacuate, with concomitant injuries, and the fire turns out to have been relatively minor and easily controlled by the Firies: "You overreacted Bloggs!"
Don't evacuate and the fire turns out to be serious, leading to loss of life."You were negligent Bloggs".
What kills people in emergencies is failure of imagination, as in the Black Saturday fires in Victoria. "Who would have thought? Who could have known?" those are the refrains you hear afterwards when that happens.
Yep, id rather be standing on the grass looking back at the Aircraft wondering what just happened than sitting in it whilst it burns........
Option 1/ definitely get out in one piece NOW and find there is no fire later on....... Oh well
Or 2/ stay in the Aircraft with 250+ other people hoping it is a false alarm and not a real threat........AND POSSIBLY DIE.
IF THERE IS DOUBT THEN THERE IS NO DOUBT....
Option 1/ definitely get out in one piece NOW and find there is no fire later on....... Oh well
Or 2/ stay in the Aircraft with 250+ other people hoping it is a false alarm and not a real threat........AND POSSIBLY DIE.
IF THERE IS DOUBT THEN THERE IS NO DOUBT....
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Bear in mind that a cargo SMOKE indication is not necessarily a fire. Neither is a burning smell. The SMOKE indication can remain after extinguisher discharge as the agent also sets off the detectors.
Evacuation may not be the only option if a situation is unknown, static or controllable, but always remains an option.
Evacuation may not be the only option if a situation is unknown, static or controllable, but always remains an option.
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As an airline pilot there is only one thing that really concerns me. A FIRE! everything else can be managed and controlled.
This is an absolute no brainer.
1. Land
2. Stop as fast as safely possible
3. Evacuate on the runway
No, if's or buts.
There is a fire and it is confirmed. GET OFF THE AEROPLANE!! Don't taxi. Don't prolong anything. You just never know whats about to happen and thats the problem.
This is an absolute no brainer.
1. Land
2. Stop as fast as safely possible
3. Evacuate on the runway
No, if's or buts.
There is a fire and it is confirmed. GET OFF THE AEROPLANE!! Don't taxi. Don't prolong anything. You just never know whats about to happen and thats the problem.
Yes it does but that in the first instance requires stairs or bridge in place. In the second it uses the slides anyway although it's supposed to be "controlled" ( yeah right that's going to work!! )
Unless multiple stairs met the Aircraft and were able to be placed very quickly I wouldn't be sitting on my hands hanging around.
This SQ A330 incident was apparently a real Fire and for the life of me I cannot see why they didn't take the first opportunity to get the hell off the Jet.......
Ignorance is bliss I guess and luckily this time it worked out ok.....
Unless multiple stairs met the Aircraft and were able to be placed very quickly I wouldn't be sitting on my hands hanging around.
This SQ A330 incident was apparently a real Fire and for the life of me I cannot see why they didn't take the first opportunity to get the hell off the Jet.......
Ignorance is bliss I guess and luckily this time it worked out ok.....
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This is a decision it must be done by the Captain. If the situation is under control and you are on the ground it could be an idea to taxi to a terminal that is close to your position and it is in sight.
Personally, I would have evacuated just after aircraft was landed safely.
Personally, I would have evacuated just after aircraft was landed safely.
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Most airlines allow some discretion if there is no physical sign of fire and there is reasonable cause to believe the indication is spurious, eg after cargo spraying. Or perhaps no hotspots on the thermal imaging and freezing conditions outside make an immediately available air bridge the least hazardous option.
Incidentally, the whole 'precautionary evacuation' via air stairs idea is only practical if the airport has plenty of advance notice. It can take 20 minutes at large airports (even in an emergency) for them to arrive.
Incidentally, the whole 'precautionary evacuation' via air stairs idea is only practical if the airport has plenty of advance notice. It can take 20 minutes at large airports (even in an emergency) for them to arrive.
Why would you ( or the Airport authority ) want to taxy an Aircraft with a possible Fire onboard containing tonnes of JetA1 onto a parking stand NEAR OTHER AIRCRAFT AND THE TERMINAL BUILDING...........
Come on people think.
If it's already at the gate then fine use the bridge, otherwise stop on a taxyway and then decide......
Come on people think.
If it's already at the gate then fine use the bridge, otherwise stop on a taxyway and then decide......
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Fully agree the place to be is open Tarmac, away from the terminal.
Narrow taxiways also an issue with fire equipment getting past aircraft and popping slides etc.
Narrow taxiways also an issue with fire equipment getting past aircraft and popping slides etc.
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MC
For along time I've held the view we don't know enough about what RFF can do, also we lack any real knowledge about fires other than "bad". I don't think we are trained enough about using the Fire Commander or given any real info on the RFF in general, however it would be a brave pilot to assume anything based on a little knowledge and simply go off and change procedures. One point that has been drilled into me over the years and that is with fire time is of the essence. You'll be lucky to have a fire where the RFF is on immediate hand as you come to a halt, ready to act. In addition, while I like the idea of an precautionary evac with stairs, again it's the time factor waiting for them to get to you.
Broken bones etc can be mended, it's a lot harder doing skin grafts and as always you'll be facing the inevitable "you didn't have the full picture and you waited, WHY?" Taxiing to a gate, waiting for the bridge/stairs takes time, time you MAY regret not using differently later.
Btw, those who say..."go to the closest gate"...good luck with that. How are the gate attendants going to know why you've pulled up unscheduled, don't expect the bridge to just roll out while they're making calls saying "who TF is this" on the phone. Lots of confusion likely in that scenario.
Broken bones etc can be mended, it's a lot harder doing skin grafts and as always you'll be facing the inevitable "you didn't have the full picture and you waited, WHY?" Taxiing to a gate, waiting for the bridge/stairs takes time, time you MAY regret not using differently later.
Btw, those who say..."go to the closest gate"...good luck with that. How are the gate attendants going to know why you've pulled up unscheduled, don't expect the bridge to just roll out while they're making calls saying "who TF is this" on the phone. Lots of confusion likely in that scenario.
Big wide runway offers RFF the best access to the aircraft especially if its muddy and wet off the paved surfaces.
Also, there is more to the SQ story than the report indicates.
"....but I reckon you would get as much arm chair criticism, particularly if you hurt someone...."
Not by anybody who counts.
Yes people will be injured during an evacuation but this concern should never be part of the decision making when fire bells are ringing.
I have yet to hear of a captain facing charges for injuring pax during an evacuation when doubt existed.
Also, there is more to the SQ story than the report indicates.
"....but I reckon you would get as much arm chair criticism, particularly if you hurt someone...."
Not by anybody who counts.
Yes people will be injured during an evacuation but this concern should never be part of the decision making when fire bells are ringing.
I have yet to hear of a captain facing charges for injuring pax during an evacuation when doubt existed.
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I can just imagine an aircraft with fire taxiing into an area where all bays are full. Pilots with no choice evacuating passengers in a crowded area with turbines running in several bays and then the aircraft burning in the middle of an entire fleet of parked aircraft. Not too many scenarios come to mind that had the potential for a more horrific outcome.
It's difficult to believe that some would even consider taxing to a gate. You've just declared an emergency for Eg the RFF are at the ready for yr arrival, ATC have all but stopped everyone where they stand as the Airport is now on emergency alert, you land & then say oh we wanna taxi to gate xx as we 'think' the fire is no longer a problem.
ATC would be out of their minds to let a well laden A/C that has just declared an emergency to wander off into a busy ramp which I might add may not be available as you where not expected anyway. Just totally way off the mark to even consider such an action. Stay away from other planes evac as the A/C is designed to cater for such an event, the crew are trained, the RFF are very well trained & you have every right as a commander to make such a decision.
Just not gunna happen, well by any responsible commander that is.
Wmk2
ATC would be out of their minds to let a well laden A/C that has just declared an emergency to wander off into a busy ramp which I might add may not be available as you where not expected anyway. Just totally way off the mark to even consider such an action. Stay away from other planes evac as the A/C is designed to cater for such an event, the crew are trained, the RFF are very well trained & you have every right as a commander to make such a decision.
Just not gunna happen, well by any responsible commander that is.
Wmk2
From 1978 through 1991 there were 18 evacuations of large, Canadian-registered, passenger-carrying aircraft. In addition, there were 3 evacuations in Canada of foreign aircraft. These 21 occurrences involved 2,305 passengers and 139 crew members and resulted in 91 fatalities and 78 serious injuries. Some 36 fatalities and 8 serious injuries occurred during the evacuation process.
I recently read a report of an RTO of a 737 flown by an Irish operator, condensation from the aircon occurred at the same time as a strange smell when take-off thrust was set, the aircraft was evacuated based on both visual and olfactory cues and one passenger broke her pelvis and her neck. There were other injuries as well. Nothing was found to be wrong with the aircraft.
Just food for thought. I think I would have evacuated the aircraft in the Singapore case but it is definitely a topic worthy of robust debate.
Sunfish's advice to follow your SOP's is often not helpful as the SOP's can't cover all the variables and are rarely black and white in their advice.
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That's an interesting statement. One imagines that the passengers of ValuJet 592 would be inclined to disagree, were they not all dead.
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ANCPER.
I've had the experience of an actual "fire warning" at the gate with a full load of passengers.
With the benefit of previous experience, all I'm saying is use all available resources in the decision making process.
In my case I had persons immediately outside the aircraft to confirm no fire & an evacuation was not required.
I've had the experience of an actual "fire warning" at the gate with a full load of passengers.
With the benefit of previous experience, all I'm saying is use all available resources in the decision making process.
In my case I had persons immediately outside the aircraft to confirm no fire & an evacuation was not required.