MERGED: Alan's still not happy......
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Regarding ground staff pay, that is slowly being reduced (along with FAs) via subsidiary companies (QGS) which employ new rampies -- and they earn roughly the same (or less) than other competing ground handlers around Australia. In terms of airport customer services - most foreign airlines employing local staff in Australia (eg CX/JL/SQ etc etc) use the QF EBA as the standard for their employee's Ts & Cs.
The same for FAs - both domestic and LH FAs are employed by subsidiaries with starting rates from around ~$45K I believe. Consider that an SQ FA will earn roughly the same, and you can see that wages aren't particularly extravagant.
That being said - ground staff in Australia (with QGS earning <$20/hr) are likely earning at least 2 or 3 times more than their compatriots lugging bags in SIN/DXB/HKG... but then so is the check out chick at Coles.
Australia is a high cost country - we enjoy a high standard of living, and higher wages naturally come along with that.
As mentioned by others, pre GFC, QF was expanding, making billion dollar profits, and wages weren't that much less compared to what they are now. So if QF were able to make bumper profits with basically the same cost structure -- staff wages aren't the problem..
The same for FAs - both domestic and LH FAs are employed by subsidiaries with starting rates from around ~$45K I believe. Consider that an SQ FA will earn roughly the same, and you can see that wages aren't particularly extravagant.
That being said - ground staff in Australia (with QGS earning <$20/hr) are likely earning at least 2 or 3 times more than their compatriots lugging bags in SIN/DXB/HKG... but then so is the check out chick at Coles.
Australia is a high cost country - we enjoy a high standard of living, and higher wages naturally come along with that.
As mentioned by others, pre GFC, QF was expanding, making billion dollar profits, and wages weren't that much less compared to what they are now. So if QF were able to make bumper profits with basically the same cost structure -- staff wages aren't the problem..
Sprucegoose
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Australia is a high cost country - we enjoy a high standard of living, and higher wages naturally come along with that.
As mentioned by others, pre GFC, QF was expanding, making billion dollar profits, and wages weren't that much less compared to what they are now. So if QF were able to make bumper profits with basically the same cost structure -- staff wages aren't the problem..
As mentioned by others, pre GFC, QF was expanding, making billion dollar profits, and wages weren't that much less compared to what they are now. So if QF were able to make bumper profits with basically the same cost structure -- staff wages aren't the problem..
My Joyce's efforts are almost as good as that bloke who went broke selling beer to us Aussies!
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Its not just the salaries!!!
I think most objective commentators agree that QF Longhaul salaries, especially on the A380, are over-inflated and the basis by which they are calculated is less than optimally efficient in this globally competitive industry.
(As an aside, the median Australian salary is less than $70K: What?s the typical Australian income in 2013? | | MacroBusiness)
I personally know several A380:
Captains earning more than $400K,
First Officers earning almost $300K,
Second Officers earning more than $200K,
and Flight Attendants earning more than $100K.
ALL OF THEM agree that they have a very cushy job and don't work very hard.
Reducing these salaries and increasing the productivity required to earn them would undoubtedly provide assistance in stemming the flow of red ink from the company's bottom line.
It won't be enough, however, to make QF globally competitive.
QF must somehow find a way to reduce its cost base to a level closer to, or ideally less than, its competitors.
As many posters have observed on the previous pages, this involves a much more dramatic restructure of the business than just getting front line crew to take, for example, a 30% paycut and work a lot harder.
It will take massive systemic change, along with the life-altering hardship that will mean for many.
Despite the pain for many, I truly hope that it can be achieved so we see this icon survive.
PG
PS. Despite all the obstacles to profitability in this cut-throat industry, the responsibility for a potentially fatal under-performance by QF International remains squarely with the Board and the Senior Management. The main institutional investors are clearly complicit.
(As an aside, the median Australian salary is less than $70K: What?s the typical Australian income in 2013? | | MacroBusiness)
I personally know several A380:
Captains earning more than $400K,
First Officers earning almost $300K,
Second Officers earning more than $200K,
and Flight Attendants earning more than $100K.
ALL OF THEM agree that they have a very cushy job and don't work very hard.
Reducing these salaries and increasing the productivity required to earn them would undoubtedly provide assistance in stemming the flow of red ink from the company's bottom line.
It won't be enough, however, to make QF globally competitive.
QF must somehow find a way to reduce its cost base to a level closer to, or ideally less than, its competitors.
As many posters have observed on the previous pages, this involves a much more dramatic restructure of the business than just getting front line crew to take, for example, a 30% paycut and work a lot harder.
It will take massive systemic change, along with the life-altering hardship that will mean for many.
Despite the pain for many, I truly hope that it can be achieved so we see this icon survive.
PG
PS. Despite all the obstacles to profitability in this cut-throat industry, the responsibility for a potentially fatal under-performance by QF International remains squarely with the Board and the Senior Management. The main institutional investors are clearly complicit.
Last edited by Popgun; 15th Dec 2013 at 07:24. Reason: Added PS
Sprucegoose
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Try actually flying an aircraft to somewhere/anywhere. QF have given away almost all their longhaul routes.
short flights long nights
Funny thing is, AJ has said nothing now for over a week.
short flights long nights
Yes, that's just what I have been thinking, Ollie.
One thing no one has adequately explained - or explored - is, WHY would Investors (institutional and individual), sit back and allow the value of their stock to diminish?
Sprucegoose
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It's all about the end game, walking away with pockets full of cash...
I personally know several A380:
Captains earning more than $400K,
First Officers earning almost $300K,
Second Officers earning more than $200K,
and Flight Attendants earning more than $100K.
Captains earning more than $400K,
First Officers earning almost $300K,
Second Officers earning more than $200K,
and Flight Attendants earning more than $100K.
I'm not saying that some people don't earn that sort of coin, but they are not in the majority.
Before you start saying that super and allowances are included and should be, if you really want to compare apples with apples, you need to consider that quoted salaries from the Middle East and elsewhere do not include the provident fund or allowances either.
Sprucegoose
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$400k/1000 hours per annum = $400 per flight hour, I think that's reasonable.
I'm earning around $350 per flight hour on a turbo prop, of course I'm doing a lot less hours per year. If anything they are slightly underpaid!
I'm earning around $350 per flight hour on a turbo prop, of course I'm doing a lot less hours per year. If anything they are slightly underpaid!
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What sort of society are you striving for in Oz? Seems people want to tear down the salary of anybody earning more than they are?
Remember, people having their incomes slashed, destroyed or removed altogether has a compounding and terribly deleterious effect on society and the domestic economy as a whole. The effects are pernicious and far reaching. Those on low six figure salaries tend to spend a lot of their cash on things that prop up the local economy, eg: home renovations, restaurant meals, etc.
One individual's job loss or income downgrade means you are next in the firing line.
And unions ain't the enemy.
Remember, people having their incomes slashed, destroyed or removed altogether has a compounding and terribly deleterious effect on society and the domestic economy as a whole. The effects are pernicious and far reaching. Those on low six figure salaries tend to spend a lot of their cash on things that prop up the local economy, eg: home renovations, restaurant meals, etc.
One individual's job loss or income downgrade means you are next in the firing line.
And unions ain't the enemy.
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Prime Minister Tony Abbott has urged Qantas to put a formal survival plan to the government and told the airline’s management and staff to “fight for itself”.
Speaking to reporters in Sydney on Sunday, Mr Abbott promised to work constructively with the airline if it put a formal proposal to the government.
“The important thing is for Qantas to put its house in order, and the important thing is for Qantas to fight for whatever it changes it thinks are necessary and desirable to keep it prospering,” Mr Abbott said. “That’s the important thing, for Qantas to fight for itself.
“Now obviously in the process of fighting for itself, it’s perfectly entitled to put a proposal to government. And when we have a formal proposition from Qantas we will respond appropriately.
Mr Abbott would not be drawn on whether the government would consider options such as offering debt guarantees to Qantas, or whether an alternative to amend the law to allow foreign ownership would be put to cabinet this week. The prime minister told the Australian Financial Review on Friday that it was not an unreasonable request by Qantas to have the 1992 Qantas Sale Act lifted.
“In the end Qantas won’t survive because the government has brought about a survival plan. Qantas will survive and flourish because everyone in Qantas from the highest in management to the lowest in staff has decided that they collectively want to fight to keep this iconic Australian brand going,” Mr Abbott said.
Qantas complains it is increasingly unable to compete against domestic rival Virgin Australia Holdings, which is majority-owned and bankrolled by three state-owned foreign airlines, *Singapore Airlines, Air New Zealand and Etihad .
Qantas is seeking short-term support and has expressed a preference for a government guarantee to shore up the airline’s credit rating.
On Saturday, Labor MP Matt Thistlethwaite said the restrictions in the Qantas Sale Act existed for a good reason.
“Given what happened to private equity in the global financial crisis you could probably fairly say if we didn’t have the Qantas Sale Act.....Qantas would not be here today,” he told Sky News.
Independent senator Nick Xenophon challenged Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce to show one dollar of profit since setting up Jetstar Asia and other offshoots.
“If the CEO Alan Joyce and the chairman Leigh Clifford go, that will transform the airline because they have presided over monumental strategic mistakes including the failed Jetstar experiment in Asia where they have burned hundreds of millions,” he said.
Tony Abbott wants to cut Qantas freeCorporate raiders circle ‘junk’ QantasAbbott cautious about Qantas guarantee
Speaking to reporters in Sydney on Sunday, Mr Abbott promised to work constructively with the airline if it put a formal proposal to the government.
“The important thing is for Qantas to put its house in order, and the important thing is for Qantas to fight for whatever it changes it thinks are necessary and desirable to keep it prospering,” Mr Abbott said. “That’s the important thing, for Qantas to fight for itself.
“Now obviously in the process of fighting for itself, it’s perfectly entitled to put a proposal to government. And when we have a formal proposition from Qantas we will respond appropriately.
Mr Abbott would not be drawn on whether the government would consider options such as offering debt guarantees to Qantas, or whether an alternative to amend the law to allow foreign ownership would be put to cabinet this week. The prime minister told the Australian Financial Review on Friday that it was not an unreasonable request by Qantas to have the 1992 Qantas Sale Act lifted.
“In the end Qantas won’t survive because the government has brought about a survival plan. Qantas will survive and flourish because everyone in Qantas from the highest in management to the lowest in staff has decided that they collectively want to fight to keep this iconic Australian brand going,” Mr Abbott said.
Qantas complains it is increasingly unable to compete against domestic rival Virgin Australia Holdings, which is majority-owned and bankrolled by three state-owned foreign airlines, *Singapore Airlines, Air New Zealand and Etihad .
Qantas is seeking short-term support and has expressed a preference for a government guarantee to shore up the airline’s credit rating.
On Saturday, Labor MP Matt Thistlethwaite said the restrictions in the Qantas Sale Act existed for a good reason.
“Given what happened to private equity in the global financial crisis you could probably fairly say if we didn’t have the Qantas Sale Act.....Qantas would not be here today,” he told Sky News.
Independent senator Nick Xenophon challenged Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce to show one dollar of profit since setting up Jetstar Asia and other offshoots.
“If the CEO Alan Joyce and the chairman Leigh Clifford go, that will transform the airline because they have presided over monumental strategic mistakes including the failed Jetstar experiment in Asia where they have burned hundreds of millions,” he said.
Tony Abbott wants to cut Qantas freeCorporate raiders circle ‘junk’ QantasAbbott cautious about Qantas guarantee
Never mind CSMs on $100K, there are a handful of LAMEs on over $200K.
Haven't thrown a spanner or lead their crews for years, they are not DMMs or supervisors, just over paid paper shufflers on a perpetual secondment.
Haven't thrown a spanner or lead their crews for years, they are not DMMs or supervisors, just over paid paper shufflers on a perpetual secondment.
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There's more than a handfull of LAME'S approching and or exceeding $200k p/a
and some of them work quite hard !!!!!
this is why there about to attack the domestic engineering 44% shift loading-
starting with the SYD DOM TERM line maint group
and some of them work quite hard !!!!!
this is why there about to attack the domestic engineering 44% shift loading-
starting with the SYD DOM TERM line maint group