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MERGED: Alan's still not happy......

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MERGED: Alan's still not happy......

Old 23rd Sep 2014, 08:06
  #5061 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Weltschmerz-By-The-Sea, Queensland, Australia
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I think that most of us are sophisticated enough to appreciate that costs extend beyond mere wages. Qantas has made attempts in the past to lessen the administrative burden, but more recently used self-defeating lock-outs and media manipulation instead of dialogue. Which brings us back to Alan Joyce, and the weave of this particular thread.

Last edited by Australopithecus; 23rd Sep 2014 at 10:35.
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Old 23rd Sep 2014, 10:43
  #5062 (permalink)  
 
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Bdcer: 737 pilots are all 30% older too!

The pathetically low hours worked are the effect of the transfer of flying to Jetstar and Cobham. IE: They are solely by management design.

Rostering practices are bad why? Because other pilots have a comparatively crap roster does not mean that everyone should be likewise abused.
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Old 23rd Sep 2014, 11:04
  #5063 (permalink)  
 
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Night credit hours
Transport to and from work
Hour credit for standby's
3rd crew member for >7.5hours
Allowances > jetstars
Overtime for 4 crew flights, where you spend bugger all time IN the flight deck

These examples are in addition to a pay higher than Jetstars.

Face the facts, in this EBA for long haul pilots, expect the company to say, game over, these legacy conditions don't work, its time to be competitive in the real world or we're using other AOC's as a catalyst for Qantas expansion.

717's with Business Class running around on the East Coast. Jetconnect. It is so easily done. So easily.

Give it up guys, games over.
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Old 23rd Sep 2014, 11:06
  #5064 (permalink)  
bdcer
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Ha ha, I'm not knocking rostering systems, I was only correcting a minor discrepancy about wage differences.

I'm not clever enough to have the answers. I used to get all excited about these issues, but I've realised it'll send you to an early grave (or at least ruin quality of life).

Try to enjoy the simple things & be thankful that we're still kicking.
 
Old 23rd Sep 2014, 11:25
  #5065 (permalink)  
 
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So, who are we comparing here? Seems to be a bit selective.
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Old 23rd Sep 2014, 11:43
  #5066 (permalink)  
 
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Everyone is talking about inflated wages at qantas.
What about the inflated salaries at qantas?
Does anyone have a comparison of AJ and JBs salaries.
Qantas is well known for it's excessively bloated manager/worker bees ratio
compared to other legacy carriers let alone LCC, wherever Virgin fits in.
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Old 23rd Sep 2014, 11:44
  #5067 (permalink)  
Keg

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Exclamation

I love how people list out various things in our award and how out dated they are without the slightest context, understanding of the history, etc.

Eg: standby credits. We don't do a couple of standbys in a roster around our other flying, we do a full month of standbys. These have credit attached to them so that the company can keep track of who has been working hard and who they need to assign standbys to and it all goes towards total pays. But sure, bag it out as an outdated thing without understanding the differences between our blank lines and other pilot rostering practises. Don't ask me why the company doesn't want 'composite rosters' where standbys are included in your roster. They just keep saying 'no' because they were a disaster in 1995 when they trialled them for a while. So in the mean time, I'll informed posters bag certain aspects of our award and conditions without understanding that it's EXACTLY the way Qantas wants it.

Is there room for efficiencies? Yes. Would many people outside of Qantas know how to get those efficiencies or the impact on rosters as Qantas wants them to be? No.

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Old 23rd Sep 2014, 12:12
  #5068 (permalink)  
 
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JQ dont get credit for standby's. They for part of the month's roster .

As part if the new EBA, they can do upto 42 days of standby straight. There us no talk of any credit hours being applied to standby days.

If Qantas don't want it to change, maybe they want it to fail.
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Old 23rd Sep 2014, 12:23
  #5069 (permalink)  
 
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42 days of stand-by on a salary=stand-by credit. Does it not?

Like Keg says, no conditions were created in a vacuum. The company has had 94 years of often dud management and has the cumbersome award as a result.

When cowards shy away from the bargaining table and hire labour consultants instead, idiot ideas like the lock-out are concieved. They could have had concessions back then but elected to roll the dice instead. They lost 200 million and all of the things they could have won with some frank discussion.
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Old 23rd Sep 2014, 12:26
  #5070 (permalink)  
Keg

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Grrr

JQ dont get credit for standby's. They for part of the month's roster .
Lucky you. They're not part of ours as I've previously mentioned. Qantas said they've trialled it and it was too difficult to implement given the longer trips that Qantas pilots tend to fly- 10 plus days away.

As part if the new EBA, they can do upto 42 days of standby straight. There us no talk of any credit hours being applied to standby days.
I presume JQ have a min guarantee credit or are you suggesting you can do 42 standbys straight for zero pay? If you get a min guarantee then you're effectively getting credit for standbys. Wow. Just the same as Qantas crew. I did a bunch of standbys this month. All of them had credit associated with them. I still got paid min guarantee hours as I suspect a JQ pilot in identical circumstances would.

I'd also be surprised if CASA would allow 42 standbys straight. Well perhaps you can do the standby but won't be able to fly if called out.

If Qantas don't want it to change, maybe they want it to fail.
Wow. What insight. If only I'd thought about that nearly a decade and a half ago when they first bought Impulse. Oh, wait!

Thanks for making my point nicely (again) though.
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Old 23rd Sep 2014, 13:07
  #5071 (permalink)  
 
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Pilot A is a first year pilot on X dollars per hour.

Pilot B is a 12th Year Service pilot on X * 1.82 dollars per hour.

Same aircraft, same rank, same airline, same industrial agreement.

Some will say that's not fair !

Both Pilot A & B hold the same qualifications & do exactly the same work.

The reality is, that's the agreement & that's the pay rates.

Compared this to.

Pilot C works for a Legacy Airline & earns X dollars per year.

Pilot D works for a LCC and earns Y dollars per year.

Similar size aircraft, same rank, same airline group, different agreements.

Some will say that's not fair !

Both Pilot C & D hold the same qualifications & do exactly the same work.

The reality is, that's the agreement & that's the pay rates.

MC.
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Old 23rd Sep 2014, 13:23
  #5072 (permalink)  
 
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Yeah, some very good points !

I guess I was just putting on here the views of dudes I fly with, and with really bad spelling at the same time.

Im not involved or associated with any of this, just thought id stir the pot.

Well played gentleman!
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Old 23rd Sep 2014, 13:30
  #5073 (permalink)  
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The company has had 94 years of often dud management and has the cumbersome award as a result
No they have many of the conditions after QF pilots in the 60's got tired of the BS and went on strike and defeated management. They then got a whole bunch of stuff in their agreement that management have being tried to remove for 40 years. Most of the 'outdated' items are there for a reason. More than likely because someone your grandfathers age got screwed over so they got it into the award.

What you get paid and your conditions are nothing more than what you agree on. Nothing more nothing less. Whether that is fair or reasonable is immaterial.
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Old 23rd Sep 2014, 13:51
  #5074 (permalink)  
 
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Give it up guys, games over
I take the alternative view.

It's actually game on.

Like NN stated, everything comes at a price.
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Old 23rd Sep 2014, 21:15
  #5075 (permalink)  
 
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Let's take home transport. Should it be removed? No, why? Duty of care. Does the definition need to be changed for entitlement, yes? Another reason we had it was when Qantas was expanding many years ago it was cheaper and easier than trying to get more parking for crew at QCC. Many crew would arrive at work 30/40 minutes earlier only to end up on the phone to scheduling saying they would be late because they couldn't get a parking spot.
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Old 24th Sep 2014, 00:55
  #5076 (permalink)  
 
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Come on guys, NO matter what we may think of Qantas Mainline terms and conditions we should all have 100% support for our fellow aviators right to defend their terms and conditions. For the contract to be as it is in its current form there must have been agreement at some point from the Company on those conditions.

Most pilots were 'offered' those conditions when they joined Qantas, they are entitled to think that those will be the conditions for the duration of their employment.

Allowing the 'best' local contract to be undermined and re-written to a lesser contract will impact EVERYONE in the industry. We will find ourselves having pressure put on for across the board reductions as management will always trot out the line 'we are low cost and can't be paid the same as a legacy carrier'. If that legacy carrier finds itself closer to the low cost model in terms of cost the next reduction will be to the low cost carrier.

It is not for me to tell another pilot that he/she needs to take a paycut, If I were on those terms and conditions I would fight tooth and nail to keep them.
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Old 24th Sep 2014, 01:24
  #5077 (permalink)  
 
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end up on the phone to scheduling saying they would be late because they couldn't get a parking spot.
Now that there is only one person on tech crew scheduling, you would spend an additional 40 minutes on hold ...


A Seriously dysfunctional company now.
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Old 24th Sep 2014, 01:48
  #5078 (permalink)  
 
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I'll continue to fight to keep my T & C's for as long as I continue to see co. management begrudgingly giving staff travel priority to long serving staff who've earned the privilege, and then turning around and giving higher priority to some pissant junior IT "manager" with 1 year's service and 0 - 1 direct report, just because he has "manager" in his job title, which completely undermines the spirit and intention of granting such privilege to loyal and long serving employees.
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Old 24th Sep 2014, 03:24
  #5079 (permalink)  
 
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I have ranted about this before and I shall continue to do so despite being personally almost beyond this particular fray. Like the monster above, I will not accept any pay cut from the current crowd of looters.

Low cost carriers might try to tell you that their goal is to be a low wage carrier. Try finding the low wage checkout queue at Coles or your kids' school's fee window. You are only worth what you'll accept. There are misguided young pilots actually paying to fly as F/Os in small US regionals. That is the depth to which a free market will go, I guess.

I hear colleagues suggesting a B scale might entice the company to again grow mainline. I hear the argument that we should not waste time negotiating for people who have yet to be hired. That too is a mistake: I joined under good T & Cs because my predecessors fought for them. If you want this industry to continue to provide a middle class income in this very expensive country then you will have to insist upon it, I'm afraid.

When did JQ terms and conditions become the gold standard, by the way? Tiger is the market bottom-feeder, yet even it pays much better than Jetstar. It should not be a race to the bottom, despite what some pimply manager will cheerfully tell you.
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Old 24th Sep 2014, 07:05
  #5080 (permalink)  
 
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First post here, but have read for some time and could not stand back without commenting.

I'm curious, what is the purpose in passing comment on the Qantas pilots contracts? Why is this is a peculiar colloquialism of Australian pilots?

Similarly, why the need to continually denigrate managers? Many of these people are highly qualified individuals who, like the pilots, want the company to grow and prosper. Most managers earn far less than mainline pilots, notwithstanding that there are some at the very top of the organisation whose earnings make headlines. Surely most rational people realise that those earnings are the exception?

Managers do not sit up at midnight posting crap about pilots, the vast majority respect the crew and the job they do. Why is that not reciprocated?
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