MERGED: Alan's still not happy......
It can all change with one good CEO.
It's also not just Mainline that is in trouble here, it's the "Group", if you think your safe at Jetstar, Network, Qantaslink etc, you probably need to take a bit more interest in what's going on here, because if the "group" runs out of money everyone feels the pain.
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gone fishin,
There are some things that I think that could save it... and its all about 'levelling the playing field' -- and not by giving QF a big cheque -- and creating a distinction between Domestic (which can be profitable) and International, whilst still ensuring that this country can retain aviation skillsets
It starts by applying the same rules to each airline, and making International more competitive
Domestic Airlines
- All fleets >5 of any type must be maintained in Australia, both minor and major overhauls, including painting, interior refurb etc
- Implementation of standardised and simplified industry awards, rather than the current system of company specific awards which creates this whole lowering costs game.
International Airlines
- Flag carrier status to be a combination of foreign ownership (in an entity that must have separate management and publish separate financials), majority local management and majority staff (inc any contractors)
- International carriers are free to have maintenance conducted offshore, and have offshore pilot/ FA bases (subject to above majority staff rule)
- Benchmarking of airport charges (landing/movement/terminal space etc) to an Asian airport survey
- Quicker depreciation for aircraft that are part of international fleet
- Govt support for debt funding of international fleet purchases
Net I would expect this to result in an increase in aviation employment in this country., without damaging the competitiveness of international and without costing the government too much.
There are some things that I think that could save it... and its all about 'levelling the playing field' -- and not by giving QF a big cheque -- and creating a distinction between Domestic (which can be profitable) and International, whilst still ensuring that this country can retain aviation skillsets
It starts by applying the same rules to each airline, and making International more competitive
Domestic Airlines
- All fleets >5 of any type must be maintained in Australia, both minor and major overhauls, including painting, interior refurb etc
- Implementation of standardised and simplified industry awards, rather than the current system of company specific awards which creates this whole lowering costs game.
International Airlines
- Flag carrier status to be a combination of foreign ownership (in an entity that must have separate management and publish separate financials), majority local management and majority staff (inc any contractors)
- International carriers are free to have maintenance conducted offshore, and have offshore pilot/ FA bases (subject to above majority staff rule)
- Benchmarking of airport charges (landing/movement/terminal space etc) to an Asian airport survey
- Quicker depreciation for aircraft that are part of international fleet
- Govt support for debt funding of international fleet purchases
Net I would expect this to result in an increase in aviation employment in this country., without damaging the competitiveness of international and without costing the government too much.
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Redundancy has been a fact of life for ground staff for nigh on a decade. Up until now, pilots have been a protected specie. Some will argue that's been justified but when the day of reckoning arrives, it's called a catastrophe. Really? It is time to face reality, tough as it might be, and understand that redundancy is nothing new and faced by thousands of others who would inevitably have been in a much more parlous financial state than any Qantas pilot.
First of all from an accounting point of view Pilots are an Asset - and what I mean by this is that they are an expensively trained unit of labour. (I am ignoring the human side of the equation here, and I am not talking about the BS Sky God QANTAS factor - the same applies to most airlines - and for that matter any other specialist jobs) It has cost thousands of dollars to train a pilot. It is not an overnight process, so there is a hefty time cost as well. The quoted figure some years ago was around $1 million in training over X number of years by the time command is reached. (Things may be cheaper these days) So to get rid of pilots is to also dispose of expensive assets. Obviously nobody in QF treats any staff as assets - they are purely accounted for as an expense under current management practices - so its probably an irrelevant argument.
Secondly, and more interestingly, the reduction in pilots indicates no future plans for expansion (we essentially know this from the lack of QF mainline aircraft on order) - which pretty much indicates doom and gloom for the entire organisation. So if its come down to pilots going, there will be many more going. So yes - it probably is pretty much Catastrophic - not just for pilots, but anyone caught up in the mess.
Lastly:
Really? It is time to face reality, tough as it might be, and understand that redundancy is nothing new and faced by thousands of others who would inevitably have been in a much more parlous financial state than any Qantas pilot.
You really are a particularly offensive wart on the backside of reality Ken. Your lack of empathy over many months has been unpleasant to watch but even you have plumbed new depths with your most recent post you repugnant individual.
DA,
You are free to say and think what you like, as am I. However, don't be too offended when someone says or writes something with which you disagree.
As for lacking empathy, I say 'Bah". I lived with the possibility of redundancy for years but without the golden parachute that many enjoy. I know what goes through the mind, and the minds of others. Let's face it, no one's been threatened with cancer or some other catastrophic life threatening issue.
You are free to say and think what you like, as am I. However, don't be too offended when someone says or writes something with which you disagree.
As for lacking empathy, I say 'Bah". I lived with the possibility of redundancy for years but without the golden parachute that many enjoy. I know what goes through the mind, and the minds of others. Let's face it, no one's been threatened with cancer or some other catastrophic life threatening issue.
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Redundancy
Lincenced Aircraft Engineers are also highly trained and skilled, but that hasnt stopped Qantas from making hundreds of them redundant over the past ten years !
I cant believe that QF Pilots do not have a redundancy agreementin their EBA !
The writing has been on the wall for years !
Welcome to the real world guys, and dont think management will stop at just 100!
I cant believe that QF Pilots do not have a redundancy agreementin their EBA !
The writing has been on the wall for years !
Welcome to the real world guys, and dont think management will stop at just 100!
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hi blueloo
i agree pilots are expensive to train. qf pilots possibly have had more than many others. lots of $ for sure.
dont agree however that pilots are an asset on a spreadsheet. they are a dime a dozen. they even pay for their own training if you need one.
regardless of whats happened before, the pilots you have now are only worth what you can get the next one for.
which aint much if you take the box ticking approach to satisfy casa.
i agree pilots are expensive to train. qf pilots possibly have had more than many others. lots of $ for sure.
dont agree however that pilots are an asset on a spreadsheet. they are a dime a dozen. they even pay for their own training if you need one.
regardless of whats happened before, the pilots you have now are only worth what you can get the next one for.
which aint much if you take the box ticking approach to satisfy casa.
Pilots do have a redundancy agreement in their EBA but it only covers CR, not VR. VR is open for negotiation but ultimately the company determines what they want to offer. Pilots take it or not. If the numbers aren't sufficient than we can only assume that CR and the resultant waterfall of training will result. The worrying thing is that the company may go bust so the guys who take VR may be the only ones to get a payout.
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i agree pilots are expensive to train. qf pilots possibly have had more than many others. lots of $ for sure.
dont agree however that pilots are an asset on a spreadsheet. they are a dime a dozen. they even pay for their own training if you need one.
regardless of whats happened before, the pilots you have now are only worth what you can get the next one for.
which aint much if you take the box ticking approach to satisfy casa.
dont agree however that pilots are an asset on a spreadsheet. they are a dime a dozen. they even pay for their own training if you need one.
regardless of whats happened before, the pilots you have now are only worth what you can get the next one for.
which aint much if you take the box ticking approach to satisfy casa.
Otherwise, the flipside of your argument is that QF have a management who are saying that "Hey look, we've got a training department that costs a lot of money to produce the same standard of employee who we could have hired off the street and who would have paid for their own training. And this has been going on for years." Why haven't they all been sacked for this?
Any manager or accountant worth their salt would hopefully be able to differentiate between what is a 'box ticking exercise' and what is the true value of QF's assets. And that extends to all parts of the company ... engineers, ground staff etc. Otherwise, why have managers? They could all be replaced by chimps with red pens.
Pilots are a dime a dozen. Pilots with a proven training record of a high standard operation aren't. Qantas has a long history of safety and operational excellence, and I'm sure this is at least one reason our (now few) FF remain loyal to us. Management just tear down another remaining 'pillar' supporting Qantas.
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DA not sure you are correct because even in a failure employee entitlements rank just after liquidators expenses. Provided redundancy provisions are in EBA it should be fine because the Rat is asset rich and all debts will be right down the list beyond liens on aircraft.
You can also bet that AJ and his entourage will be paid, he will make sure of that.
You can also bet that AJ and his entourage will be paid, he will make sure of that.
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liv
managers and bean counters differentiate exactly how they are told and paid to do.
Any manager or accountant worth their salt would hopefully be able to differentiate between what is a 'box ticking exercise' and what is the true value of QF's assets
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QF Safety History
Livs Hairdresser
Qantas used to have one of the best 747 heavy maint facilities in the world, but now its long gone !
The same for 737 heavy maint at Tulla, and the Engine Overhaul Centre in SYD.
History confirms that QF management put dollars before safety.
Good Luck guys !
Qantas used to have one of the best 747 heavy maint facilities in the world, but now its long gone !
The same for 737 heavy maint at Tulla, and the Engine Overhaul Centre in SYD.
History confirms that QF management put dollars before safety.
Good Luck guys !
Don't forget the CF6 overhaul facility they had in partnership with Lufthansa Technik which was shut down two years ago. What a joke that auction was...the most I saw things fetch was 10% of replacement cost. And much of it was indeed replaced for use in other bases. 
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As ALAEA Fed Sec said. It just takes one good CEO to change everything. Nobody is perfect yet Rob Fyfe would be light years ahead of the incumbent.
short flights long nights
And I assume Alan is still not talking? Hell of a way to manage a crisis. 
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QF22,
Singing from the same hymn sheet.
w9
Sorry, lost track of what we were discussing. Was it
which would not be correct in any sane airline
or
It's like telling FOs they aren't allowed to call 'not stable'.
Singing from the same hymn sheet.
w9
Sorry, lost track of what we were discussing. Was it
dont agree however that pilots are an asset on a spreadsheet. they are a dime a dozen.
or
managers and bean counters differentiate exactly how they are told and paid to do.
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DA been through it personally and whilst liquidators argued at every step of the way, eventually they gave up and just paid. Some of the contracts involved were very large and into the millions (not mine) but they were paid under court order. There was an argument as to reasonableness or excessive, but at the end of the day the contract prevailed in every case.
Would have thought pilots would have no difficulty arguing long periods as reasonable but get good advice.
Good luck to everyone.
Would have thought pilots would have no difficulty arguing long periods as reasonable but get good advice.
Good luck to everyone.