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MERGED: Alan's still not happy......

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MERGED: Alan's still not happy......

Old 19th Mar 2014, 07:58
  #3561 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: S33E151
Posts: 835
They don't know how to deal with people like me.
I don't want to shoot you down in flames, but you followed Elaine and though I was impressed by your knowledge I really do believe Mr Squiggle and Steam Shovel would have done better than Elaine, so the competition was not strong.

Having said that:

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Old 19th Mar 2014, 07:59
  #3562 (permalink)  
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The following is a copy from last Fridays Hansard.

"Senator XENOPHON: I am sorry, we are running out of time. Could you take on notice how much it costs for each of those aircraft to be sitting on the ground pending regulatory approval?

Ms Hrdlicka : I have the answer now. We have made an investment in Jetstar Hong Kong, a fixed investment, with the *FIRST* tranche being $33 million. Jetstar Hong Kong has the full liability for the nine aircraft that have been ordered for Jetstar Hong Kong. The liability is Jetstar Hong Kong's; we are an investor, and we have provided our one-third investment."

(* my emphasis)

I have two issues with JH's response.

JH stated that the FIRST tranche (investment) was $33 million.

Has there been any subsequent investment? When is the next tranche?

The second issue is JH & AJ seem to be distancing themselves from the accountability of establishing the Jetstar Hong Kong business model.

"We are an investor, and we have provided our one third investment" JH

This seems to be a distant approach to that advocated at the launch of Jetstar Hong Kong per the following quotes

"Establishing Jetstar Hong Kong in the heart of Asia and the doorstep of mainland China is a huge opportunity to continue the successful expansion of the Jetstar brand in this region" AJ 26.3.12

"The successful low cost model of Jetstar" AJ 26.3.12

"Jetstar Hong Kong will maximise the synergies by combining the Jetstar Group resources including brand management, commercial management, safety, aircraft Maintanence and IT systems" AJ 26.3.12

"This is a unique opportunity for Jetstar to capitalise on the enormous potential of the greater Chinese market............using a model that we know delivers for our customers and shareholders" Bruce Buchanan 26.3.12

Its a little more than a one third hands off investment. You guys are running the show (or lack thereof) and its your and Boston Consultings xxxx up.

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Old 19th Mar 2014, 08:24
  #3563 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2011
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I can't copy the Hansard (I've tried) but a number of times it has been said 'A _minority_ investor in J* HKG'.

That being the case, who is the MAJORITY investor?

In other words, who is actually paying the bill??

PS: In awe of your cut and paste ability..
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Old 19th Mar 2014, 08:27
  #3564 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2011
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An interesting exchange from Tuesday the 18th hearing.

Senate Hearing 18th March 2014 transcript
(my BOLD)
Senator XENOPHON: That is all I needed to know from you. Mr Joyce, can you please tell me what happened in that four-month period to cause such a massive turnaround in the statements that you made.
Mr Joyce : Mr Evans is going to answer that question.

Senator XENOPHON: No, I would like you to answer it, please.
Mr Joyce : I am happy for Mr Evans to answer it.

Senator XENOPHON: I would like you to answer it.
Mr Joyce : He has the facts.
Mr Evans : The situation is that the two statements are completely consistent with each other. If you go back to that time, the business was recovering from the GFC. This was in February 2011. The GFC hit us in financial year 2009. We began recovering from that in financial year 2010 and recovered further in financial year 2011. The comment that was made on 17 February was around the recovery that the business was seeing. Our yields had improved in that year, but that was a recovery from the GFC, when we saw our yields decline by approximately 25 per cent across the business as a whole. We also said in that 17 February statement, if you read on:
While demand on key international routes continues to improve, the international environment remains challenging. We remain committed to improving the performance of Qantas' international business.
So even on 17 February we called out that there were challenges in the international business. Subsequently, on 22 June, we clarified for the first time—because prior to that we had talked about Qantas in totality—the performance of the international business separately, and subsequent to that we have clarified it more and it is now a separate segment in our financial statements. But the fact that the Qantas business as a whole in that first half of the financial year 2011 made $165 million, which was part of the statement on 17 February, in no way indicated that the international business was making profits.

Senator XENOPHON: Sure, but the share price, as I understand it, fell by about 27 per cent from 17 February to, I think, 23 June. There was a significant decline in the share price in that period—was there not?
Mr Evans : I do not recall the exact share price across that period.

Senator XENOPHON: But there was a drop.
Mr Evans : This is a tough environment and there was a wide range of reasons that the share prices moved.

Senator XENOPHON: That was the first time you advised the market about Qantas international on 22 June 2011?
Mr Evans : That is correct.
CHAIR: I am going to allow you latitude because it is your time, to some extent, but we are here looking at the bill and I think you can only draw a very distant relationship with what you are inquiring about.

Senator XENOPHON: I do not want to burn up time arguing with you, Chair, but the fact is these are relevant matters in terms of considering the bill.
CHAIR: I just draw your attention to the purpose of why we are here, but it is your time.

Senator XENOPHON: And I say that it is relevant to that purpose. Thank you, Chair. From 17 February 2011 to just prior to the announcement on 22 June 2011, did any Qantas group director or executive meet or brief any institutional investors?
Mr Evans : I cannot recall what briefings took place.
Most curious, as Qantas's own monthly traffic statistics don't seem to reflect any problem Internationally. To me they don't seem to reflect a decline in yield in the International side of the business (both QFI and J*I). Domestic yes, but not International, yet QF International was apparently the source of the problems in June.

Jan 2011 Monthly traffic statistics
Total International (Qantas and Jetstar International
operations) yield excluding foreign exchange for the
financial year to January 2011 increased by 11.1 percent

when compared to the corresponding prior year
Feb 2011 Monthly traffic statistics
Total International (Qantas and Jetstar International
operations) yield excluding foreign exchange for the financial year to February 2011 was 10.2 percent higher
when compared to the corresponding prior year

Mar 2011 Monthly traffic statistics
Total International (Qantas and Jetstar International
operations) yield excluding foreign exchange for the financial year to March 2011 was 9.3 percent higher when
compared to the corresponding prior year period

Apr 2011 Monthly traffic statistics
otal International (Qantas and Jetstar International operations) yield excluding foreign exchange for the financial year to April 2011 was 8.7 percent higher when
compared to the corresponding prior year period.
May 2011 Monthly traffic statistics
International (Qantas International, Jetstar International
and Jetstar Asia operations) yield excluding foreign
exchange for the financial year to May 2011 was 8.4 percent
when compared to the corresponding prior year period.
Maybe I need to fix my faulty calculator!
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Old 19th Mar 2014, 08:29
  #3565 (permalink)  
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Could they not just be using language that is conversant with getting round the Hong Kong AOC restrictions?
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Old 19th Mar 2014, 08:34
  #3566 (permalink)  
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Am very surprised that Ken B as such an issue with Steve P. I would be very happy for SP to represent my interests.

I am after someone who has done their homework, knows the issues 'inside out' and is basing their submission on FACTS.

AJ can't even remember what he said a few months ago, has to constantly refer to others, and it seems knows very little about the business he is 'running'

I though SP handled the Q&A very well!

You're not management are you Ken?
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Old 19th Mar 2014, 08:58
  #3567 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Fedsec can fly Virgin if he wants. The benefit of flying Qantas provides nothing to the members and they would be happy that Fedsec has adhered to hs principles.
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Old 19th Mar 2014, 09:14
  #3568 (permalink)  
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I just dont buy this JHK crap. Who are the actual lease companies for these jets and is there any residual liability (ie side deal) that says QF will fund it on behalf of JHK. Makes no sense that anyone would lease to a start up with no parental (even at 30% even if that is true) guarantee!!!

The other thing is that if I was a shareholder in a company that was reporting losses over $200m I would be really pissed off that someone got it so wrong that $30m to $50m was being pissed up against a fence and the best management could say was....this is normal because ..... Sorry I dont care. As one famous Kerry Packer said to a group of Execs...what the phark have you guys done with MY money.

If you are making profits I would cut some slack but NOT in the times when things are so bad they ask the govt for a bailout of any kind.

So where is the accountability for the $$$ these guys (and I mean them all from AJ right down the J line)
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Old 19th Mar 2014, 09:42
  #3569 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Posts: 143
Qantas A330's leased to Jetstar International

I noticed this last in Hansard.

Senator XENOPHON: Does it sublease any aircraft used by any Jetstar entity? Is there any subleasing going on between the two?

Senator XENOPHON: And that market rate is at a higher value than you lease it for?

Mr Evans : Yes.

Ms Hrdlicka : You are talking about Jetstar Asia, Singapore—

Mr Evans : Just to clarify, this is just for Singapore.

Ms Hrdlicka : Singapore only.

Senator XENOPHON: Any other entities?

Mr Evans : No.

Senator XENOPHON: You do lease or there is no leasing going on?

Mr Evans : No. We do not lease to any other entity.

...Does that mean the A330's aren't leased (or sub-leased) but just gifted to Jetstar?
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Old 19th Mar 2014, 09:43
  #3570 (permalink)  
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If $33M is 1/3 share you would have to assume they have $99M in the JHK accounts to start with.

I am tipping that they have spent a small fortune already trying to get the regulatory crap through. How much do we estimate these aircraft are costing each month per unit to lease?
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Old 19th Mar 2014, 09:51
  #3571 (permalink)  
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Roughly $20,000 USD per day per aircraft.

Jetstar ghost fleet draining Qantas coffers? | Plane Talking
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Old 19th Mar 2014, 10:05
  #3572 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Age: 64
Posts: 677
Ken Burrow...deeper

Just for the record, Senator Sean Edwards is NOT 'unrepresentative swill' as claimed for he was actually elected to the Senate by South Australian voters in General Election of 2010. Certain here may not have liked or appreciated it, but he did a wonderful job skewering a vocal but uninformed union official last night in Canberra. Said union official was sadly found to be wanting.

On the other hand, Nathan Safe and his colleague shone a bright light on matters outside Qantas' control that have adversely affected it in recent years. I hope the Senators listened carefully to what they said as there were really on the money, unlike a certain other witness who appeared just before them.

I am not sure where you are coming from. If it is medically induced, I commisurate.

It is not Steve Purvinas that is ill-informed, sadly it is you that is ill-informed.

As I have stated, Steve and I probably have differing views on a number of things but there is no doubting his sincerity and attention to detail. He may be a so-called "disgruntled former QF employee" but that does not, in any way, mean that he does not care about the organisation and its future, especially when half his members work for QF.

As to "unrepresentative swill", it is a fair comment given the line of questioning taken by Sean Edwards, someone who was too lazy to have read the submission in full and asked questions that had already been asked and answered.

None of Steve's presented facts are about race, colour or creed. They are simply facts. Indeed there are LAMES in Australia who are Asian. What the hell has the race card got to do with anything.

The crux of the argument is how many holes are being put into the cheese and when they will all line up and result in a smoking hole and 300 body bags.

The dumbing down of this industry can only go on so long before the actuaries say "enough is enough". We haven't reached that stage yet but we are getting close.

As to the external factors affecting the Qantas performance, they pale into insignificance when compared to the internal gross negligence and ineptitude of management.

Most of the big Asian carriers, including my own, have more flights in and out of Australia, servicing more cities, than does QF. How can that happen? We don't fly empty a/c for the fun of it. We service the market, often at higher fares than offered by QF.

The only QF staff that follow AJ and his cohorts do so out of curiosity.
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Old 19th Mar 2014, 10:45
  #3573 (permalink)  
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How much do we estimate these aircraft are costing each month per unit to lease?
Storage costs?

And again. If Qantas is not the founder and funder of 'their' LCC in HKG - Jetstar, then who is paying what to Qantas for the licencing? Given, of course, they are but a minority shareholder/investor of their own brand.

It's a tricky question. Qantas must be making a motsa out of (at least) the franchising or they wouldn't be investing in it - especially in a minority capacity with new aircraft parked all over the place, would they?

What questions are QF asking of the real owners in their 'investments'? If they are clearly failing on so many levels, where is the accountability to QF shareholders? We know BGA is clearly an idiot, but is he that stupid to throw hundreds of millions into an investment using 'his' brand in HKG when it isn't even operating with jets parked all over the globe costing millions per month? And he/we are but 'minority' investors in this magnificent investment? Why BGA? Why? Show us the pay off.....

I'm a QF shareholder, I want to know the answer...
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Old 19th Mar 2014, 16:07
  #3574 (permalink)  
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Qantas is clearly in deep deep trouble. Led by greedy idiots, who think they are the smartest people in the room. They are all getting cashed up, ready to walk away, leaving a burning heap behind them. And they won't care.

In 30 years time, one of my grandchildren, will read about this, as an example of the dark times in corporate Australia. It will tell of times when idiots where paid millions of dollars to rape a company and it's employees, make thousands of them unemployed, in fact make them all unemployed, as the Buisness was shut down, but the clowns that run the Business got payed millions for total ineptitude.

Some one needs to be in jail for what is going on.
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Old 19th Mar 2014, 17:10
  #3575 (permalink)  
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I liked this bit, Senator Edwards buts in, wants to free Joyce and the board to continue on their rampage destroying the place, no idea..

Senator DASTYARI: But you have lost a share price of 50 per cent and you have lost 50 per cent of your market. You are telling me that it is a successful model when you have lost 50 per cent of market cap and 50 per cent of share price—

Senator EDWARDS: That is why we want to free them; that is why we want to set them free, Sam.

Senator DASTYARI: That is what you are saying makes a successful—

CHAIR: Senator Dastyari, allow Mr Joyce to answer.

Mr Joyce: I am saying that if you have a corner shop and a competitor down the road is willing to sell the same product and lose money associated with it, it does not matter how good your corner shop is if that competitor is willing to lose $250 million in the case of Tiger and $400 million in the case of Virgin. That is the dynamic that we are faced with.
Senator DASTYARI: Mr Joyce, if it were in the interests of shareholders for you to resign, would you do so?
Mr Joyce: Senator, I have the support of our shareholders. If I do not have the support of my shareholders, the board and the shareholders—
Senator DASTYARI: No, I am not asking whether you have the support of the board; I am asking whether, if you felt it were in the financial interest of the firm, you would resign.
Mr Joyce: That is the important thing, Senator. The important thing is to have the support of the shareholders, and I continuously meet with our shareholders. We have met with the shareholders in the last few weeks, and they understand the dynamics. They spend more time on this than this committee would.
Senator DASTYARI: Mr Joyce, you are not answering my question.
Mr Joyce: They are the owners of this business. They decide who the management is and they decide who the board is.
Senator DASTYARI: Chair, he is not answering my question.
CHAIR: He is entitled to answer as he chooses. Senator Edwards has the call.
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Old 19th Mar 2014, 20:30
  #3576 (permalink)  
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You aren't going to "Set Qantas Free' you are going to "Set The Hedge Funds Free" to rape and pillage the AUstralian aviation consumer.

The true value of Domestic and International mainline is concealed. WIth the complicity of Virgin, any thinking marketer can rape the Australian domestic aviaton consumer quite easily. Anyone remember $700 tickets Melbourne - Sydney and return?

The entire Jetstar business is a deliberate cash drain. Nobody in their right mind believes you can make money out of the Chinese. All these programs do is suck cash and hold the share price down.
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Old 19th Mar 2014, 20:42
  #3577 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2006
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I initially thought Mr Andrew Finch (Qantas Counsel) was present to protect Joyce at the senate inquiry.

As a former legal consultant to the APA private equity bid.

I think he was there to protect the plan to achieve foreign ownership.

Mstr Caution is offline  
Old 19th Mar 2014, 20:51
  #3578 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Posts: 1,199

Regarding the drain on Qantas financials.

I recall the JQ CEO Bruce Buchanan discussing access to the shared Qantas Group Treasury.
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Old 19th Mar 2014, 21:36
  #3579 (permalink)  
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The important thing is to have the support of the shareholders, and I continuously meet with our shareholders. We have met with the shareholders in the last few weeks, and they understand the dynamics. They spend more time on this than this committee would.
Which shareholders? My father has some shares in Qantas and hasn't had any contact from Mr Joyce except for the once a year meeting invite.

Does he only talk to large shareholders and not to small ones?

Doesn't sound fair to me- is that even legal?
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Old 19th Mar 2014, 22:10
  #3580 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2006
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Jetstar quits Auckland-Singapore route

10:08 AM Thursday Mar 20, 2014

A Jetstar plane arrives at Auckland International Airport.
Jetstar will quit flying from Auckland to Singapore from July, saying the route is not performing as well as it had hoped.
The budget airline is also facing the prospect of stiffer competition.
Jetstar started flying daily Singapore-Auckland services in March 2011, but this was later reduced to three times a week.
The airline is facing the prospect of greater competition on the route from the proposed Air New Zealand-Singapore Airlines alliance, which if approved will result in the New Zealand airline returning to flying its aircraft on the route and its partner moving towards using an Airbus A380 to Auckland.
Jetstar is part of the troubled Qantas group but says it is expanding elsewhere between Australia and Asia. In the next few months starting long haul services between Melbourne and Tokyo Narita and between Brisbane and Bali.
A spokesman said Jetstar had provided competition to the monopoly routes and had provided low fare choice on the Singapore-Auckland service.

"Unfortunately the route has not performed as we would have liked and we have decided that the capacity could be put to better use on other routes," he said.
All passengers booked on the Jetstar service beyond July 21 will be offered the option of a full refund, bringing their flights forward to travel before direct services end, or transferring to a connecting service via Australia.
The airlines withdrawal is a blow to the travel industry. Auckland Airport in its recent submission on the proposed Air New Zealand-Singapore Airlines alliance had urged the government to carefully consider the impact on the competitive environment on the route.
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