Ground collision YMML - Virgin/Jetstar
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Isn't this VA's third serious push/tow accident?
Out of curiosity what was the root cause of the 2 VA incidents in LA where aircraft were damaged during push/tow? It's not a trick question or a smart arse one, just curious, even though it wasn't VA staff in LA doing the ground handling it does seem as if there have been some fairly serious ramp handling incidents , at least 3 now with VA, does it not seem like there is a higher than average occurrence rate? Is there a systemic issue here? Lack of workable procedures? Lack of internal or third party oversight?
Anyway, the chickens have come home to roost. When you have ground staff continually expressing their concern at having insufficient manpower to carry out the task, a quite serious and potentially dangerous task at that, then this is the end result. Heads should roll, and I'm not talking about the guy on the headset, I'm talking at a level above that. Too many managers thinking that pushing a plane is as risky as reversing your Bentley out of your Clayfield mansion. Fools.
Anyway, the chickens have come home to roost. When you have ground staff continually expressing their concern at having insufficient manpower to carry out the task, a quite serious and potentially dangerous task at that, then this is the end result. Heads should roll, and I'm not talking about the guy on the headset, I'm talking at a level above that. Too many managers thinking that pushing a plane is as risky as reversing your Bentley out of your Clayfield mansion. Fools.
Last edited by Cactusjack; 13th Aug 2013 at 03:09.
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BPA Refer to my previous post :
Ground Crews also have SOP's. The pushback crew are responsible for the safety of the aircraft during the pushback/tow.
This has not changed in my 50 years or so in aviation, end of story.
Ground Crews also have SOP's. The pushback crew are responsible for the safety of the aircraft during the pushback/tow.
This has not changed in my 50 years or so in aviation, end of story.
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As I said if the push on Saturday was done with a PPU then the accident may not have occurred as usng a PPU the dispatchers (engineers or baggage handlers) are free to move around the front of the aircaft without a towbar or tug getting in the way.
It would have caused another problem though. The aircraft he was pushing was going back between the International aircraft on D2 and D4. He couldn't watch them both. How hard can it be to put a bloody Wing Walker out there? The only answer I can think of is, they have none. Not enough staff because they are penny pinching. Hope they have lots of pennies to pay Jetstar for the damage they caused.
Last edited by ALAEA Fed Sec; 14th Aug 2013 at 00:22.
Ground Crews also have SOP's. The pushback crew are responsible for the safety of the aircraft during the pushback/tow.
This has not changed in my 50 years or so in aviation, end of story.
This has not changed in my 50 years or so in aviation, end of story.
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When new staff are employed to carry out these duties, who actually trains them, Engineers or the ramp staff that are currently doing the job?
Is the training adequate?
Just curious, on that contract at JFKNY I spoke of before where they were obviously not trained well enough, we had our flight arriving at the ITR one day and the guidance lights were not working, after our Aircraft had sat short of the bay for some 10 minutes I asked who was going to marshal it onto the bay, NOT one person knew how to as they had never been trained, I went ahead and did it for which the Crew and our Company were grateful, and guess what I was chastised for doing it by the local Airport Manager, he tells me off instead of having his people trained to marshal Aircraft.
Is the training adequate?
Just curious, on that contract at JFKNY I spoke of before where they were obviously not trained well enough, we had our flight arriving at the ITR one day and the guidance lights were not working, after our Aircraft had sat short of the bay for some 10 minutes I asked who was going to marshal it onto the bay, NOT one person knew how to as they had never been trained, I went ahead and did it for which the Crew and our Company were grateful, and guess what I was chastised for doing it by the local Airport Manager, he tells me off instead of having his people trained to marshal Aircraft.
Last edited by airsupport; 14th Aug 2013 at 01:17.
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Not having been there, but from my common observations, this accident most likely occurred due to the Jetstar pilots not fully being on the bay, and there not being a marshaller to arrive the aircraft.
Time and time again, both JQ and occasionally QF drivers will taxi onto a bay without being marshalled, stopping short of the designated stop line until someone appears to complete the arrival. There is a belief that the taxiway must be cleared,but at what cost? This shows why you should never taxi on to a bay without appropriate clearance because other aircraft may mistake you for having completed your on bay arrival even though the beacon is still on.
Just remember, you only see one area from your goldfish bowl, but most other operators see the picture better outside the bowl.
Time and time again, both JQ and occasionally QF drivers will taxi onto a bay without being marshalled, stopping short of the designated stop line until someone appears to complete the arrival. There is a belief that the taxiway must be cleared,but at what cost? This shows why you should never taxi on to a bay without appropriate clearance because other aircraft may mistake you for having completed your on bay arrival even though the beacon is still on.
Just remember, you only see one area from your goldfish bowl, but most other operators see the picture better outside the bowl.
The Jetstar aircraft was correctly in the bay, at the correct stop-line.
Not according to ground and the initial investigation.........
Nope. Eyewitness reports contradict that.
You don't need wing walkers if you use the correct push out line and stay with the nose wheel on the centre of that line, the wing tip clearances were taken into account when the lead in and lead out lines were painted on, if jetstar was not at its stop bar and yid was being pushed after seeing the 320 at what looked to be its final parked position then bang.....
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I do not believe it is safe for anyone to push an aircraft if they cannot see where it is going .The push-back should have a wing walker if in any doubt. You just cannot be allowed or expected to push blindly in tight spots and assume it is clear even if the crew have been cleared to push-back. In short, people need more support out there. It is not just other aircraft you can hit.
Back in my day, yes when Dinosaurs roamed the Airports
ALL pushbacks were done with 2 people, usually both Engineers, and as stated it is NOT just the danger of striking another Aircraft, numerous times I had vehicles go right behind the Aircraft during pushback, more than once a baggage handler drove up to the Aircraft and opened a hold to throw another bag in, even had one day as we began the pushback the Traffic Officer opened the front door again. 
To do ANY pushback with one person is just silly and so dangerous.
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To do ANY pushback with one person is just silly and so dangerous.
Tombstone maint, World best practice, etc etc etc.
You don't need wing walkers if you use the correct push out line and stay with the nose wheel on the centre of that line,
None of the Qantas ones would.
The correct push out line and nose wheel positioning won't prevent you from hitting something. For that to be true every other human involved in pushing or taxiing or driving a ground vehicle nearby would have to get things 100% right 100% of the time and that never has happened and never will happen. Humans make mistakes, accept it and design systems to cater for it. Easy.
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"How many times have you seen a ramp monkey follow a pushout line?"
Still confused. Was this a PPU or Tug & Tow Bar pushback ?
1. Was the Virgin Australia aircraft being pushed back following the
Push Back Line accurately
2. Did the Virgin Australia aircraft stop at or before the Push Back
Limit Line
Still confused. Was this a PPU or Tug & Tow Bar pushback ?
1. Was the Virgin Australia aircraft being pushed back following the
Push Back Line accurately
2. Did the Virgin Australia aircraft stop at or before the Push Back
Limit Line
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You don't need wing walkers if you use the correct push out line and stay with the nose wheel on the centre of that line
Never mind about other drivers, other vehicles, people or animals, fallen trees or power poles etc etc...............
