Virgin Aircraft 'Emergency' Landing
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T= Trend
Need a statement of trend, eg FM or NS period otherwise just and observation not a forecast.
Forecast, the probable (
) weather for your arrival.
Observation, something thats already been seen...
FFRATS
Need a statement of trend, eg FM or NS period otherwise just and observation not a forecast.
Forecast, the probable (
) weather for your arrival. Observation, something thats already been seen...
FFRATS
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I agree BPA, the system appears to have let QF, VA down. The latest TTF I received showed no requirements on ADL. At no stage were we updated on our filed alternate as having any weather issues.
Framer, If MEL had fogged in, yes we could have proceeded to ADL, however we were unable to use MIA. It would have been an interesting morning.
ER
Framer, If MEL had fogged in, yes we could have proceeded to ADL, however we were unable to use MIA. It would have been an interesting morning.
ER
Originally Posted by dejapoo
Spelling_Nazi
I said METAR not TTF...
Back to the books for you too. Guess that makes 3
I said METAR not TTF...
Back to the books for you too. Guess that makes 3
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Road Watch: Fog cutting visibility | adelaidenow
At least motorists were advised of "actual" fog at Port Adelaide at 07:36am
MC
At least motorists were advised of "actual" fog at Port Adelaide at 07:36am
MC
There maybe some level of confusion here regarding TTF's, Metar's & Speci's.
The BOM's web site has an excellent "Knowledge Centre" for a top up of some knowledge we could all do from time to time
As 'FFrats' has pretty much alluded to here a TTF is a Forecast with a validity period ( & can be used for planing purposes) where as a Metar or Speci on it's own is a kind of 'snap shot' of the current WX with an issue time only
Wmk2
The BOM's web site has an excellent "Knowledge Centre" for a top up of some knowledge we could all do from time to time
As 'FFrats' has pretty much alluded to here a TTF is a Forecast with a validity period ( & can be used for planing purposes) where as a Metar or Speci on it's own is a kind of 'snap shot' of the current WX with an issue time only
Wmk2
...Meanwhile,the rest of the world calls it... ?
No change expected for only 2 hours and it can't be used for planning if it's part of a METAR...
Last edited by AQIS Boigu; 22nd Jun 2013 at 14:56.
No need to go back to the books for me. As I said a metar with a trend is a valid forecast and in fact supersedes the taf.
A TTF is a metar or speci with a trend suffix.
We're saying the same thing.
I am pretty sure Mildura only spits out an auto weather report and as the book says...
"Note: Pilots should exercise caution when interpreting automated cloud information as it may not be equivalent to a human observation. The information is reported as a thirty minute average (with double weighting given to the last ten minutes); and, as it is sourced from a single ceilometer sampling only the sky directly overhead, it may not be representative of the skyline."
A TTF is a metar or speci with a trend suffix.
We're saying the same thing.
I am pretty sure Mildura only spits out an auto weather report and as the book says...
"Note: Pilots should exercise caution when interpreting automated cloud information as it may not be equivalent to a human observation. The information is reported as a thirty minute average (with double weighting given to the last ten minutes); and, as it is sourced from a single ceilometer sampling only the sky directly overhead, it may not be representative of the skyline."
Last edited by spelling_nazi; 22nd Jun 2013 at 23:57.
When you live....
Mildura TAF
Back at the start of this thread, J3Pipercub said:
Who did what well and why very much depends on this.
If MIA had prob fog all night, and noticing the big time difference between the issue of the 2100Z TAF for AD and when the aircraft actually diverted to MIA, if the crew knew about the 2100Z TAF and continued towards AD with MIA as their fallback plan if the fog eventuated then they clearly haven't done a good job and probably don't deserve kudos.
If the crew didn't know about the AD 2100Z TAF then why on earth didn't they know in time to realise that they needed a backup plan before they got into a corner where MIA was their only option? Who flys for several hours without rechecking the destination TAF from time to time?
If MIA never had a fog forecast then the BOM was clearly against them - debates about airmanship and when it is/isn't appropriate to carry alternates aside. The other thing that isn't clear that may impact on this - if the 2100Z TAF said fog - what did the TTF say?
UTR
MIA had Prob fog all night.
If MIA had prob fog all night, and noticing the big time difference between the issue of the 2100Z TAF for AD and when the aircraft actually diverted to MIA, if the crew knew about the 2100Z TAF and continued towards AD with MIA as their fallback plan if the fog eventuated then they clearly haven't done a good job and probably don't deserve kudos.
If the crew didn't know about the AD 2100Z TAF then why on earth didn't they know in time to realise that they needed a backup plan before they got into a corner where MIA was their only option? Who flys for several hours without rechecking the destination TAF from time to time?
If MIA never had a fog forecast then the BOM was clearly against them - debates about airmanship and when it is/isn't appropriate to carry alternates aside. The other thing that isn't clear that may impact on this - if the 2100Z TAF said fog - what did the TTF say?
UTR
Let me say this. At the planning stage and up until departure, if there was no fog forecast on the adl taf then an alternate would not have been planned.
Secondly mildura was probably an enroute adequate port for the sector flown, which can have fog forecast on it and still be a legal plan.
Mad I know! But thems the rules. So here lies the problem when an aircraft actually needs to use an enroute adequate port, and the prob fog becomes a reality , Houston we have a problem.
Secondly mildura was probably an enroute adequate port for the sector flown, which can have fog forecast on it and still be a legal plan.
Mad I know! But thems the rules. So here lies the problem when an aircraft actually needs to use an enroute adequate port, and the prob fog becomes a reality , Houston we have a problem.
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triathlon, based on the TAF provided by j3pipercub in post #9,it was legally usable as an ETOPS adequate both preflight & inflight (PROB 30 FG 0500 disregarded) as well!
Last edited by FYSTI; 23rd Jun 2013 at 04:12.
Yes I agree that prob 30 can be ignored for edto alternates, but it would not have been planned as an edto flight on that sector. Having said that this is where the problem lay, where an enroute port is planned for emergency purposes or whatever, and when you get there it's clagged in.
Perhaps risk analysis has been carried out when regs are promulgated and " what are the chances of actually having to use an enroute port and the prob 30 actually turns to fog? "
Perhaps risk analysis has been carried out when regs are promulgated and " what are the chances of actually having to use an enroute port and the prob 30 actually turns to fog? "
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the system appears to have let QF, VA down
This "system" combined with crews apparent indifference to an auto land to Cat 1 results in risk taking. MEL has Cat 111B yet it appears from one poster that Virgin at least AWO qualifies its crews but not below Cat 1. From this I deduce Virgin would prefer you go around from unforcasted fog in MEL and divert with little fuel to some regional alternate....? Time for a talk to your Chief Pilot perhaps...
Blame the bean counters, but they would prefer you divert....Bean counters give you no fuel as it saves money, but that risk assessment is based on the fact that they expect some diversions to happen....they don't expect you to commit to closed airports and then make an emergency landing... Pilots hate diverting as its extra work and a slight of their professionalism, ie you didn't "get in" when others did.... Diversion is part of the job, accept it, heck I expect QF and VB might even pay you for the extra hours..
Hats off to the MIA pair but the The Australian travelling public deserve better than an emergency landing....
Sorry I wasn't aware YMIA didn't have fog on the taf. Yeh it does make for a bigger problem. Solution?
Maybe sometimes shti just does happen?
Or met men/ woman have some explaining to do ?
Maybe shti happens.
I don't know.
Maybe sometimes shti just does happen?
Or met men/ woman have some explaining to do ?
Maybe shti happens.
I don't know.
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Max AB, it's about the CASA approvals process, not about what the company does or doesn't do. The training is to Cat 2. You are aware that the airports concerned haven't been approved for Cat 2 or 3 yet anyway, aren't you?
When you live....
Tenretni says the mildura taf didn't have fog forecast.
Someone is right and someone is wrong
Someone is right and someone is wrong