Workplace Bullying On Sim Checks
Originally Posted by hobo
And when you get your command, you realise that they aren't all in the left hand seat!
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1. TAKE A MEANS OF COVERTLY RECORDING THE EVENT WITH YOU.
2. DO NOT EVEN TELL THE SUPPORTING CREW MEMBER WHAT YOU ARE DOING. DONT TELL ANYONE....
7. HAVE OTHER CREW WHO HAVE EXPERIENCED THE SAME TRAUMA ORDERD TO ATTEND AS WITNESSES. DO NOT GIVE THEM ANY PRIOR NOTICE OF YOUR INTENT.
2. DO NOT EVEN TELL THE SUPPORTING CREW MEMBER WHAT YOU ARE DOING. DONT TELL ANYONE....
7. HAVE OTHER CREW WHO HAVE EXPERIENCED THE SAME TRAUMA ORDERD TO ATTEND AS WITNESSES. DO NOT GIVE THEM ANY PRIOR NOTICE OF YOUR INTENT.
2. That's the perfect way to piss off a work colleague (who may have sympathy to your cause). Don't expect his/her support at any inquiry. Expect to be on every other pilot's **** LIST from that day forward, as the word will spread.
7. With such a selfish and aggressive stance, good luck getting anyone - aggrieved or otherwise, to assist your cause in any way.
In over 20 years of simming, I've had a couple of instances of conflict in the sim. All were sorted satisfactorily by the end of the SIMEX.
The first involved a checkie who was under CASA surveillance. I had the sim stopped mid-sequence, and we discussed the way the SIMEX was being run. Resolved. The CASA bloke said he would have done the same thing (at debrief). The checkie was normally very good in the sim, but I just put it down to pressure (on him) having CASA in the back checking him.
Checkies get stressed, too
The second was on my first jet endorsement (with an old school sim instructor). He repeatedly yelled in my ear, and at one stage hit me with his pointer
I politely informed him that if he did that again, I would shove that pointer up his fundamental orifice - sideways, and that I doubted he would have a QRH procedure for THAT.From then on the sessions went just fine. He turned out to be quite a good instructor (with his average trainee). He just needed some ground rules, as we all do.
Having said that, my experience is different to some others here. All the checkies I've simmed with have been fair and reasonable, in spite of some of the horror stories I'd heard before first being checked by them. Some have been down right fantastic. All have wanted to impart knowledge in some way, whether it be in the box or in the debrief (or both). And I've always walked away knowing a little bit more than I did beforehand.
Last edited by Hugh Jarse; 19th Apr 2013 at 06:08.
^^^ well said that man.
If a sim instructor or check pilot is criticising small points then that's obviously better than being picked up for major points. Most I've had have been good, with one or two glaring exceptions. Even on a check ride the good ones can teach you something.
Some airlines use the training department to get rid of people they don't want.
Some airlines use the training department to get rid of people they don't want.
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Fantastic Feedback
The whole intention of this thread was to provoke discussion. I respect and agree with most of the opinions. Thankyou for reading the thread. You guys took the bait and the feedback is fantastic.
I too have held Checking & Training Approval in the RPT environment so I do have a fair grasp of what it is like to be a candidate and what it is like to be a Training Captain and a Check Captain. The last thing I ever wanted to do was fail someone but the bottom line is "If you don't meet the Standard then don't play victim because you didn't do your homework or apply yourself."
I had no intention of painting all Check Captains as villians. Most are fantastic trainers aswell. But there are some who are there for the wrong reasons and they should be culled from the system. I have had a couple of nasty experiences with such characters and it was extremely disempowering. I don't like to see people suffer at the hands on such charaters.
Let's face it - FEAR OF FAILURE often gets in the way of a good performance and I speak from my own experience. Yet when in real life you do have to handle a challenge using lateral thinking your performance will depend on your skills and knowledge and you will usually perform better than if you were being checked.
Keep this discussion going. The intent was to provoke discussion and thankyou so much for your interest.
I too have held Checking & Training Approval in the RPT environment so I do have a fair grasp of what it is like to be a candidate and what it is like to be a Training Captain and a Check Captain. The last thing I ever wanted to do was fail someone but the bottom line is "If you don't meet the Standard then don't play victim because you didn't do your homework or apply yourself."
I had no intention of painting all Check Captains as villians. Most are fantastic trainers aswell. But there are some who are there for the wrong reasons and they should be culled from the system. I have had a couple of nasty experiences with such characters and it was extremely disempowering. I don't like to see people suffer at the hands on such charaters.
Let's face it - FEAR OF FAILURE often gets in the way of a good performance and I speak from my own experience. Yet when in real life you do have to handle a challenge using lateral thinking your performance will depend on your skills and knowledge and you will usually perform better than if you were being checked.
Keep this discussion going. The intent was to provoke discussion and thankyou so much for your interest.
boaccomet4 well done! You got the desired affect and created a great debate and fired up a core of the industry that truly know what they're about, so again well done.
However I thought this suggestion perhaps should be considered:
Although I don't know about the union involvement just make it an SOP of the operator. God knows it'll certainly keep the whole system honest and above board...my 2 cents worth.
However I thought this suggestion perhaps should be considered:
One way round this is for the respective unions to press for every sim/line check to be video recorded for images and sound. It could be argued that it is a valid training tool to be used for feedback and ongoing assessment?
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Without going to the details the ex Ansett -89 scab made the two days feel so bad that still after close to six years I remember it vividly.
Last edited by sheppey; 19th Apr 2013 at 12:58.
Originally Posted by Sarcs
boaccomet4 well done! You got the desired affect and created a great debate and fired up a core of the industry that truly know what they're about, so again well done.
However I thought this suggestion perhaps should be considered:
Although I don't know about the union involvement just make it an SOP of the operator. God knows it'll certainly keep the whole system honest and above board...my 2 cents worth.
However I thought this suggestion perhaps should be considered:
One way round this is for the respective unions to press for every sim/line check to be video recorded for images and sound. It could be argued that it is a valid training tool to be used for feedback and ongoing assessment?
Last edited by maggot; 19th Apr 2013 at 13:27.
You're kidding yourself if you think any reasonable training organisation
would want in on such an idea. Just think of a taped crew being involved in an incident perhaps due to their short comings... Let alone the privacy of the
crew
would want in on such an idea. Just think of a taped crew being involved in an incident perhaps due to their short comings... Let alone the privacy of the
crew
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The tape was wiped in front of the crew at the end of the debrief in front of the crew.
This is separate to the use of video strictly as a training tool and wiped at the completion of the session, which is still in use today.
I am sure that some of the CASA people would love that.
I can just see them demanding to see the recording for a sim session them applying their bull**** to pick it to pieces.
As a training tool maybe but otherwise, no thanks.
I can just see them demanding to see the recording for a sim session them applying their bull**** to pick it to pieces.
As a training tool maybe but otherwise, no thanks.
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Perhaps I was a bit vague. The main reason for the recording was that any pilot that felt he or she was treated unfairly would have immediate evidence for raising the matter further up the food chain. If, however, there is no cause for concern then any recording should be deleted after debriefing.
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Having previously had nothing to do with the dispute (or Australian aviation for that matter).....
.....has a very common ring to it. Plenty of the C&T clowns Ive met in the middle east and Asia seem to have this particular background.
Coincidence ?
the ex Ansett -89 scab made the two days feel so bad that still after close to six years I remember it vividly
Coincidence ?
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Exactly SumFing.
The orange cancer has apparently set up a scoring system to be eligible for 787. One must meet an average of 3.7 or thereabouts. Non-Ansett lads are getting all 3's, so hence they are told they're not seeing the 787. Classic corrupt system to then bring the "boat club" back home and grow the cartel ranks.
The last few EK gents are being allegedly set up for a fall in their next sim as they must be out of the system before the 787 arrives.
I'm going to enjoy watching the outcome of the "boat club" trying to set up and remove one particular ex EK Capt. They better be very very careful with this chap as he is one cat that's best to have as a friend rather than a foe.
How on earth has the industry been allowed to dive to such depths in only a relatively small amount of time.
The orange cancer has apparently set up a scoring system to be eligible for 787. One must meet an average of 3.7 or thereabouts. Non-Ansett lads are getting all 3's, so hence they are told they're not seeing the 787. Classic corrupt system to then bring the "boat club" back home and grow the cartel ranks.
The last few EK gents are being allegedly set up for a fall in their next sim as they must be out of the system before the 787 arrives.
I'm going to enjoy watching the outcome of the "boat club" trying to set up and remove one particular ex EK Capt. They better be very very careful with this chap as he is one cat that's best to have as a friend rather than a foe.
How on earth has the industry been allowed to dive to such depths in only a relatively small amount of time.
Last edited by ratpoison; 20th Apr 2013 at 00:57.
The industry in Australia has been diving since the year that was mentioned in a previous post, and you can blame those of a certain 'encrustational' background, and those who stood back and did nothing.
One could pretty well tell who was going to weaken even as it was brewing, and now the next generation of young Aussie pilots are having dealings with some of these people, and not finding it pleasant.
One could pretty well tell who was going to weaken even as it was brewing, and now the next generation of young Aussie pilots are having dealings with some of these people, and not finding it pleasant.
Last edited by Captain Dart; 20th Apr 2013 at 02:38.
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In certain circumstances instructors get their comeuppance. The following story had legendary status when I went through training in 1967. Everyone at the time thought it was just that, a story. Not until a couple of years ago did I find it was indeed factual.
The recording captures radio transmissions of a flight in which four instructor pilots replaced four (unsuspecting) student pilots who were dutifully heading to their airplanes for their formation flight check ride ("final exam" in formation flight). Lieutenant Nichol, their assigned check ride instructor, was renowned for his abrasiveness such as the way he screamed at his students on the radio. Thus his fellows singled him out for a little "life lesson."
On this occasion his fellow instructors drove him "nuts" while the proceedings were taped by the Saufley Field tower (note background laughter). It seems LT Nichol may have been the ONLY person in the Basic Naval Air Training Command NOT in on the joke, as his four fellow instructors royally screwed up everything imaginable. Note it takes LT Nichol only about 3 minutes to correctly diagnose his problem as hopeless and order the "students" back to base. That's when the "fun" begins and it takes over 15 minutes to get them back.
Legend maintains that LT Nichol, an officer of considerable administrative skill, later exacted retribution on the "ringleader" of this caper, a Marine major. In revenge, he created fake orders transferring the major to a west coast assignment, thus causing the major to put his house up for sale.
The recording captures radio transmissions of a flight in which four instructor pilots replaced four (unsuspecting) student pilots who were dutifully heading to their airplanes for their formation flight check ride ("final exam" in formation flight). Lieutenant Nichol, their assigned check ride instructor, was renowned for his abrasiveness such as the way he screamed at his students on the radio. Thus his fellows singled him out for a little "life lesson."
On this occasion his fellow instructors drove him "nuts" while the proceedings were taped by the Saufley Field tower (note background laughter). It seems LT Nichol may have been the ONLY person in the Basic Naval Air Training Command NOT in on the joke, as his four fellow instructors royally screwed up everything imaginable. Note it takes LT Nichol only about 3 minutes to correctly diagnose his problem as hopeless and order the "students" back to base. That's when the "fun" begins and it takes over 15 minutes to get them back.
Legend maintains that LT Nichol, an officer of considerable administrative skill, later exacted retribution on the "ringleader" of this caper, a Marine major. In revenge, he created fake orders transferring the major to a west coast assignment, thus causing the major to put his house up for sale.
Last edited by Brian Abraham; 20th Apr 2013 at 04:40.
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Then again, workplace bullying is a specialist field for lawyers and a refuge for some employees who are not up to the task or lack the personal attributes to cope with other people.
It's a growth industry in the public service.
It's a growth industry in the public service.
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Wrongwayround has it right wayaround...bullying is as present in aviation as it is in any other industry.
There is no less of it in the private sector than in the public sector. The difference is that the public sector must conform more rigidly and more explicitly to appropriate behaviour to employees and employers under OH and S legislation. The law applies equally to both of course but more education on it and greater awareness and understanding of it occurs in the public sector. More formal complaints are made in the public sector as a result. Unfortunately there is also a much greater rate of unfounded complaints lodged, too often resulting from people simply not wanting to do as directed.
This leads me to my next points.
Some of the comments in this thread summarised by 'suck it up princess' do no good whatsoever. Equally of concern is that there are a number of posts which seem to show a misunderstanding of what 'bullying' actually is. Dealing with a demanding checkie who expects high standards and doesn't beat around the bush in pulling you up, even if tersely, isnt a bully and isn't bullying.
I say the latter is of concern as was mentioned by someone else in this thread (sorry couldn't find the quote). if you do not know or recognise what bullying is then you are far more likely to bully at some point and excuse it as simply necessary behaviour in dealing with princesses.
From Wikipedia
Bullying is the use of force or coercion to abuse or intimidate others. The behavior can be habitual and involve an imbalance of social or physical power. It can include verbal harassment or threat, physical assault or coercion and may be directed repeatedly towards particular victims, perhaps on grounds of race, religion, gender, sexuality, or ability.
The general consensus is that such behaviour becomes bullying when it is repeated.
If you felt abused during one ride but not next time around with the same guy next to you or behind you it is hard to argue he is a bully. He just had a bad day.
Please note the last of the grounds listed in the definition. Bullying of a pilot under a checking situation sim or otherwise simply because they are underachieving is just as illegal and unjustified as doing it on the basis of their racial background.
Even if they got pissed the night before their sim, or spent only 15 minutes preparing for the check beforehand or even if they just cant fly, they are still entitled by law not to be bullied in the workplace whether you think they deserve to be or not.
If a pilot or anyone for that matter sees, commits or accepts abusive behaviour in the workplace, they are in for a really hard lesson sooner or later. If you still aren't sure what bullying is, when you are eating in restaurants in the future, observe how some patrons treat the wait staff. Those who make a complaint assertively but politely earn nothing but respect from all concerned.
The waiter may still spit in your next course in the kitchen but if you bullied them they will be doing far worse to it.
LD
There is no less of it in the private sector than in the public sector. The difference is that the public sector must conform more rigidly and more explicitly to appropriate behaviour to employees and employers under OH and S legislation. The law applies equally to both of course but more education on it and greater awareness and understanding of it occurs in the public sector. More formal complaints are made in the public sector as a result. Unfortunately there is also a much greater rate of unfounded complaints lodged, too often resulting from people simply not wanting to do as directed.
This leads me to my next points.
Some of the comments in this thread summarised by 'suck it up princess' do no good whatsoever. Equally of concern is that there are a number of posts which seem to show a misunderstanding of what 'bullying' actually is. Dealing with a demanding checkie who expects high standards and doesn't beat around the bush in pulling you up, even if tersely, isnt a bully and isn't bullying.
I say the latter is of concern as was mentioned by someone else in this thread (sorry couldn't find the quote). if you do not know or recognise what bullying is then you are far more likely to bully at some point and excuse it as simply necessary behaviour in dealing with princesses.
From Wikipedia
Bullying is the use of force or coercion to abuse or intimidate others. The behavior can be habitual and involve an imbalance of social or physical power. It can include verbal harassment or threat, physical assault or coercion and may be directed repeatedly towards particular victims, perhaps on grounds of race, religion, gender, sexuality, or ability.
The general consensus is that such behaviour becomes bullying when it is repeated.
If you felt abused during one ride but not next time around with the same guy next to you or behind you it is hard to argue he is a bully. He just had a bad day.
Please note the last of the grounds listed in the definition. Bullying of a pilot under a checking situation sim or otherwise simply because they are underachieving is just as illegal and unjustified as doing it on the basis of their racial background.
Even if they got pissed the night before their sim, or spent only 15 minutes preparing for the check beforehand or even if they just cant fly, they are still entitled by law not to be bullied in the workplace whether you think they deserve to be or not.
If a pilot or anyone for that matter sees, commits or accepts abusive behaviour in the workplace, they are in for a really hard lesson sooner or later. If you still aren't sure what bullying is, when you are eating in restaurants in the future, observe how some patrons treat the wait staff. Those who make a complaint assertively but politely earn nothing but respect from all concerned.
The waiter may still spit in your next course in the kitchen but if you bullied them they will be doing far worse to it.
LD
Last edited by LookinDown; 20th Apr 2013 at 08:06.