QF pilots and management pow-wow
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QF pilots and management pow-wow
So how did it go? What was discussed? Was there any common ground found? Are we all besties again?
Are there any ppruners who can shed some light?
Are there any ppruners who can shed some light?
* new uniforms.
* eXcel awards for everyone.
* Christmas diaries to be reinstated.
* Double dinner allowance at Christmas to be extended to those in their home base as well.
* glossy magazine called 'Aspire' or something similarly inane to highlight your colleagues achievements. First issue to detail the thrilling stories of 747 and 380 crew who choose to extend.
* iPads for everyone - oh wait....
* daily emails from Simon Hickey to everyone detailing the amazing "transformation" of the international business currently underway.
* only one Chief pilot - segmentation not really working anyway.
* long service badges to be equipped with an extra ruby at all levels.
*Career still f
d but at least you'll fell better about yourself when being made redundant.
Please note that any similarity to anything discussed at said meeting is purely coincidental and is intended for comedic purposes only.
* eXcel awards for everyone.
* Christmas diaries to be reinstated.
* Double dinner allowance at Christmas to be extended to those in their home base as well.
* glossy magazine called 'Aspire' or something similarly inane to highlight your colleagues achievements. First issue to detail the thrilling stories of 747 and 380 crew who choose to extend.
* iPads for everyone - oh wait....
* daily emails from Simon Hickey to everyone detailing the amazing "transformation" of the international business currently underway.
* only one Chief pilot - segmentation not really working anyway.
* long service badges to be equipped with an extra ruby at all levels.
*Career still f
d but at least you'll fell better about yourself when being made redundant.Please note that any similarity to anything discussed at said meeting is purely coincidental and is intended for comedic purposes only.
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They promise to stop issuing RIN FSOs at 4.55pm on a Friday.
Stop trying to use the flight and duty limitations as a aim for domestic ops.
Honestly I'm not sure if its achievable. I'd love to know how much discretionary fuel ordering has gone up last few years. I'm sure they do.
Stop trying to use the flight and duty limitations as a aim for domestic ops.
Honestly I'm not sure if its achievable. I'd love to know how much discretionary fuel ordering has gone up last few years. I'm sure they do.
Enagement
Truer words have not been spoken.......
I think your initiative is great and definitely worth a shot but unfortunately destined to fail.
I don't think the company understands or values the pilot profession or if it does has decided to exploit rather than reward the lack of mobility that is inherent with it. In years to come I see this leading to lower pilot standards and safety but this is perhaps another discussion for another time.
I think that the attitude of the company changed when management decided to confront, alienate, and make us the problem, rather than engage us and include us as part of the solution over the necessary introduction of jetstar.
Alan Joyce was central to that decision. What we see now stems from the fall out and the destruction of trust and spirit of cooperation that more or less existed between pilots and management prior to that.
I don't believe that any meaningful discussions can take place between pilots and management in the current environment with the current players.
I don't believe that the pilot body is in a position to change the current environment. We recently tried via dialogue and non militant means and were locked out of the work place. We have no other avenue or tools available to us and feel disenfranchised and impotent as a result.
I believe that the current management and Alan Joyce in particular has destroyed so much trust, respect, brand and share holder value, that they are now very much the problem and are unable to have a role in any solution.
I don't have any personal grievance to bear towards anyone but firmly believe that the first step on the road to restoring trust, respect, and share holder value is for both Alan Joyce and the Chairman who is ultimately responsible for appointing him to be replaced.
I wish you luck but think your efforts will be in vain so long as the current management continues to believe that "cost nuetral" initiatives can only be measured in dollars and cents directly and fails to see the ultimate value of loyal, contented staff and happy customers.
The lack of respect, trust and ultimately loyalty between management, staff and customers is what I believe to be the core problem and would put on top of my agenda. Fix that and all the other issues fix themselves.
I think your initiative is great and definitely worth a shot but unfortunately destined to fail.
I don't think the company understands or values the pilot profession or if it does has decided to exploit rather than reward the lack of mobility that is inherent with it. In years to come I see this leading to lower pilot standards and safety but this is perhaps another discussion for another time.
I think that the attitude of the company changed when management decided to confront, alienate, and make us the problem, rather than engage us and include us as part of the solution over the necessary introduction of jetstar.
Alan Joyce was central to that decision. What we see now stems from the fall out and the destruction of trust and spirit of cooperation that more or less existed between pilots and management prior to that.
I don't believe that any meaningful discussions can take place between pilots and management in the current environment with the current players.
I don't believe that the pilot body is in a position to change the current environment. We recently tried via dialogue and non militant means and were locked out of the work place. We have no other avenue or tools available to us and feel disenfranchised and impotent as a result.
I believe that the current management and Alan Joyce in particular has destroyed so much trust, respect, brand and share holder value, that they are now very much the problem and are unable to have a role in any solution.
I don't have any personal grievance to bear towards anyone but firmly believe that the first step on the road to restoring trust, respect, and share holder value is for both Alan Joyce and the Chairman who is ultimately responsible for appointing him to be replaced.
I wish you luck but think your efforts will be in vain so long as the current management continues to believe that "cost nuetral" initiatives can only be measured in dollars and cents directly and fails to see the ultimate value of loyal, contented staff and happy customers.
The lack of respect, trust and ultimately loyalty between management, staff and customers is what I believe to be the core problem and would put on top of my agenda. Fix that and all the other issues fix themselves.
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Truer words have not been spoken.......
I think your initiative is great and definitely worth a shot but unfortunately destined to fail.
I don't think the company understands or values the pilot profession or if it does has decided to exploit rather than reward the lack of mobility that is inherent with it. In years to come I see this leading to lower pilot standards and safety but this is perhaps another discussion for another time.
I think that the attitude of the company changed when management decided to confront, alienate, and make us the problem, rather than engage us and include us as part of the solution over the necessary introduction of jetstar.
Alan Joyce was central to that decision. What we see now stems from the fall out and the destruction of trust and spirit of cooperation that more or less existed between pilots and management prior to that.
I don't believe that any meaningful discussions can take place between pilots and management in the current environment with the current players.
I don't believe that the pilot body is in a position to change the current environment. We recently tried via dialogue and non militant means and were locked out of the work place. We have no other avenue or tools available to us and feel disenfranchised and impotent as a result.
I believe that the current management and Alan Joyce in particular has destroyed so much trust, respect, brand and share holder value, that they are now very much the problem and are unable to have a role in any solution.
I don't have any personal grievance to bear towards anyone but firmly believe that the first step on the road to restoring trust, respect, and share holder value is for both Alan Joyce and the Chairman who is ultimately responsible for appointing him to be replaced.
I wish you luck but think your efforts will be in vain so long as the current management continues to believe that "cost nuetral" initiatives can only be measured in dollars and cents directly and fails to see the ultimate value of loyal, contented staff and happy customers.
The lack of respect, trust and ultimately loyalty between management, staff and customers is what I believe to be the core problem and would put on top of my agenda. Fix that and all the other issues fix themselves.
I think your initiative is great and definitely worth a shot but unfortunately destined to fail.
I don't think the company understands or values the pilot profession or if it does has decided to exploit rather than reward the lack of mobility that is inherent with it. In years to come I see this leading to lower pilot standards and safety but this is perhaps another discussion for another time.
I think that the attitude of the company changed when management decided to confront, alienate, and make us the problem, rather than engage us and include us as part of the solution over the necessary introduction of jetstar.
Alan Joyce was central to that decision. What we see now stems from the fall out and the destruction of trust and spirit of cooperation that more or less existed between pilots and management prior to that.
I don't believe that any meaningful discussions can take place between pilots and management in the current environment with the current players.
I don't believe that the pilot body is in a position to change the current environment. We recently tried via dialogue and non militant means and were locked out of the work place. We have no other avenue or tools available to us and feel disenfranchised and impotent as a result.
I believe that the current management and Alan Joyce in particular has destroyed so much trust, respect, brand and share holder value, that they are now very much the problem and are unable to have a role in any solution.
I don't have any personal grievance to bear towards anyone but firmly believe that the first step on the road to restoring trust, respect, and share holder value is for both Alan Joyce and the Chairman who is ultimately responsible for appointing him to be replaced.
I wish you luck but think your efforts will be in vain so long as the current management continues to believe that "cost nuetral" initiatives can only be measured in dollars and cents directly and fails to see the ultimate value of loyal, contented staff and happy customers.
The lack of respect, trust and ultimately loyalty between management, staff and customers is what I believe to be the core problem and would put on top of my agenda. Fix that and all the other issues fix themselves.
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I think your initiative is great and definitely worth a shot but unfortunately destined to fail.
I don't think the company understands or values the pilot profession or if it does has decided to exploit rather than reward the lack of mobility that is inherent with it. In years to come I see this leading to lower pilot standards and safety but this is perhaps another discussion for another time.
I think that the attitude of the company changed when management decided to confront, alienate, and make us the problem, rather than engage us and include us as part of the solution over the necessary introduction of jetstar.
Alan Joyce was central to that decision. What we see now stems from the fall out and the destruction of trust and spirit of cooperation that more or less existed between pilots and management prior to that.
I don't believe that any meaningful discussions can take place between pilots and management in the current environment with the current players.
I don't believe that the pilot body is in a position to change the current environment. We recently tried via dialogue and non militant means and were locked out of the work place. We have no other avenue or tools available to us and feel disenfranchised and impotent as a result.
I believe that the current management and Alan Joyce in particular has destroyed so much trust, respect, brand and share holder value, that they are now very much the problem and are unable to have a role in any solution.
I don't have any personal grievance to bear towards anyone but firmly believe that the first step on the road to restoring trust, respect, and share holder value is for both Alan Joyce and the Chairman who is ultimately responsible for appointing him to be replaced.
I wish you luck but think your efforts will be in vain so long as the current management continues to believe that "cost nuetral" initiatives can only be measured in dollars and cents directly and fails to see the ultimate value of loyal, contented staff and happy customers.
The lack of respect, trust and ultimately loyalty between management, staff and customers is what I believe to be the core problem and would put on top of my agenda. Fix that and all the other issues fix themselves.
This is the same in my outfit - it's the current airline pilot HR model. Substitute the names for our mob and the story is the same. Our rotting started in 1994 with B scales and away management went on this destructive trail.
I was discussing this with a much younger pilot the other day and he asked if I thought it would get better. Can't possibly do so. It's not what management want. At best, the relationships will stay as they are - which is woeful.
I'm leaving the industry after 30+ years. Not retiring, but a career change.
Good luck to those who remain behind.
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It's not just in aviation that staff are being treated in such a way, it seems to be the new business model in many fields.
AWA's are being used to divide and conquer all staff at all levels.
AWA's are being used to divide and conquer all staff at all levels.
Typhoon:
....and it will continue until someone like Bob Katter rips the corporate shills in both Labor and Liberal parties to shreds,
We need Politicians who actually have agendas they personally want to push, people who believe in something, anything but just not careerist aresholes who will sell any message a lobbyist gives them to enrich themselves. It matters not Labor or Liberal.
Look at the creeps who run the AWU and formerly the HSU. Look at that creep Eddie Obeid in NSW. Look at some of the crap in the Liberal party.
If you keep electing scum, then the living and working conditions of the average Australian (as opposed to the 1%) are only going to get worse.
It's not just in aviation that staff are being treated in such a way, it seems to be the new business model in many fields.
AWA's are being used to divide and conquer all staff at all levels.
AWA's are being used to divide and conquer all staff at all levels.
We need Politicians who actually have agendas they personally want to push, people who believe in something, anything but just not careerist aresholes who will sell any message a lobbyist gives them to enrich themselves. It matters not Labor or Liberal.
Look at the creeps who run the AWU and formerly the HSU. Look at that creep Eddie Obeid in NSW. Look at some of the crap in the Liberal party.
If you keep electing scum, then the living and working conditions of the average Australian (as opposed to the 1%) are only going to get worse.
We need Politicians who actually have agendas they personally want to push, people who believe in something, anything but just not careerist aresholes who will sell any message a lobbyist gives them to enrich themselves. It matters not Labor or Liberal.
(Although the problem these days is not so much lobbyists, but more that the parties fill every available position with their 'mates'.)
Last edited by Creampuff; 26th Jan 2013 at 22:51.
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The problem with current management is they manage reactive and too late.
The current management pow wows would not be occurring if they listened and acted on employees concerns years ago.
I'd go further to say they should listen & act on employee advice in a range of areas.
Examples off the top of my mind include:
1. Mainline staff were concerned about their career progression in 2004, hence the MOU with JQ but management failed to manage the pilot numbers. Recruitment progressed full steam ahead at JQ whilst mainline pilots were denied the opportunity to transfer to JQ. Total group pilot numbers increased so too the surplus of pilots in mainline. I believe there are currently around 200 surplus pilots in mainline. If the MOU was managed correctly there should have been no surplus, that's why the MOU was out in place.
2. Engagement surveys revealed the lack of mainline engagement for years, including mainline members concerns about career progression. If management had addresses the concerns years earlier there would be no need for the management pow wows now.
3. Frontline staff constantly provided feedback from passengers about JQ/QF code sharing. Our passengers would tell us they thought they bought Qantas & got Jetstar. Only now years later have management decided to pull the code share numbers on selected flights.
4. For years QF passengers have told frontline staff they want mainline to fly to places like Bali & Hamilton island. But management decided on a slow retreat from destinations only to gift passengers to the likes of JQ & VB.
5. Staff were telling management for years even though the 767 was due for retirement it needed a cabin refresh & IFE upgrade. It took years before the refresh commenced.
The problem is they don't listen. Then eventually roll forward a couple of years, countless focus groups over latte's and minute taking. Consultation with external consultants and new initiatives are implemented and sold as management driven change.
It's about longevity. The pilots group needs to just sit on their hands. Passing time before theses clowns manage change albeit late.
The current management pow wows would not be occurring if they listened and acted on employees concerns years ago.
I'd go further to say they should listen & act on employee advice in a range of areas.
Examples off the top of my mind include:
1. Mainline staff were concerned about their career progression in 2004, hence the MOU with JQ but management failed to manage the pilot numbers. Recruitment progressed full steam ahead at JQ whilst mainline pilots were denied the opportunity to transfer to JQ. Total group pilot numbers increased so too the surplus of pilots in mainline. I believe there are currently around 200 surplus pilots in mainline. If the MOU was managed correctly there should have been no surplus, that's why the MOU was out in place.
2. Engagement surveys revealed the lack of mainline engagement for years, including mainline members concerns about career progression. If management had addresses the concerns years earlier there would be no need for the management pow wows now.
3. Frontline staff constantly provided feedback from passengers about JQ/QF code sharing. Our passengers would tell us they thought they bought Qantas & got Jetstar. Only now years later have management decided to pull the code share numbers on selected flights.
4. For years QF passengers have told frontline staff they want mainline to fly to places like Bali & Hamilton island. But management decided on a slow retreat from destinations only to gift passengers to the likes of JQ & VB.
5. Staff were telling management for years even though the 767 was due for retirement it needed a cabin refresh & IFE upgrade. It took years before the refresh commenced.
The problem is they don't listen. Then eventually roll forward a couple of years, countless focus groups over latte's and minute taking. Consultation with external consultants and new initiatives are implemented and sold as management driven change.
It's about longevity. The pilots group needs to just sit on their hands. Passing time before theses clowns manage change albeit late.
Last edited by Mstr Caution; 26th Jan 2013 at 23:02.
Sunfish
Might I suggest that some of the problem at least stems from what all the HR and other managers are taught during their uni days etc.
Typhoon:
Quote:
It's not just in aviation that staff are being treated in such a way, it seems to be the new business model in many fields.
AWA's are being used to divide and conquer all staff at all levels.
....and it will continue until someone like Bob Katter rips the corporate shills in both Labor and Liberal parties to shreds,
We need Politicians who actually have agendas they personally want to push, people who believe in something, anything but just not careerist aresholes who will sell any message a lobbyist gives them to enrich themselves. It matters not Labor or Liberal.
Quote:
It's not just in aviation that staff are being treated in such a way, it seems to be the new business model in many fields.
AWA's are being used to divide and conquer all staff at all levels.
....and it will continue until someone like Bob Katter rips the corporate shills in both Labor and Liberal parties to shreds,
We need Politicians who actually have agendas they personally want to push, people who believe in something, anything but just not careerist aresholes who will sell any message a lobbyist gives them to enrich themselves. It matters not Labor or Liberal.
The problem with current management is they manage reactive and too late.
Oh, but there were 2 blogs for the whole of Nov, both getting stuck into the troops.
Last edited by The The; 27th Jan 2013 at 08:21.
Noticed that myself. Not surprised though...after seeing his performance at a Flight Crew briefing last year I hardly think engagement is his strong suit.
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"rather than engage us and include us as part of the solution over the necessary introduction of jetstar."
I think the conversation went something like this:
QF: "we need to change the way we do things. We need to cut labor and we need lower salaries if we are going to compete in a changing market place."
Pilots: "Get knicked."
QF: "OK. We will try something else then, thanks."
I think the conversation went something like this:
QF: "we need to change the way we do things. We need to cut labor and we need lower salaries if we are going to compete in a changing market place."
Pilots: "Get knicked."
QF: "OK. We will try something else then, thanks."
Australian Airlines was all about compromise but guess what these people wanted more and they continue to do so today....race to the bottom! Starting salary for driving trucks is how much?