QF Ek Green Light
Nunc est bibendum
J* International is bleeding money using A330s with ordinary load factors and crappy yield. They do OK hiding those figures in the opaque reporting figures captured by including Jetstar's NZ domestic network as part of the 'international' figures. The last thing they want is an A380. It would be then impossible to hide the losses in their reporting.
Nunc est bibendum
No conspiracy. You can view the numbers yourself. It's alluded to here.
So which part do you disagree with?
1. That J* international's reporting is opaque? Ben Sandilands tends to agree if you go back and read his comments relating to J* 'international' over the last 12+ months. This one from very recently is particularly pertinent.
2. That J* International's load factors are ordinary? Their own data suggests that.
3. That J* international's yields are ordinary? Look at the people supposedly carried and the 'profit' they generate to work that one out.
So let me say again (for the dozenth or so time). I acknowledge the important part that J* Australia played in containing Virgin in the domestic market. I'm waiting to see the return on investment for J* international. So far 'bleeding money' seems to be the more accurate descriptor.
So which part do you disagree with?
1. That J* international's reporting is opaque? Ben Sandilands tends to agree if you go back and read his comments relating to J* 'international' over the last 12+ months. This one from very recently is particularly pertinent.
No-one, not even those with forensic accounting skills, seem prepared come clean as to the truth about Jetstar traffic figures and possible confusion between what is international and domestic.
3. That J* international's yields are ordinary? Look at the people supposedly carried and the 'profit' they generate to work that one out.
So let me say again (for the dozenth or so time). I acknowledge the important part that J* Australia played in containing Virgin in the domestic market. I'm waiting to see the return on investment for J* international. So far 'bleeding money' seems to be the more accurate descriptor.
Last edited by Keg; 5th Jan 2013 at 01:44.
Is Emirates upset that the QF 380s don't have enough economy seats and still too many toilets in this config.
Or maybe they want QF to do away with the troublesome first class suites and install the more troublesome shower system.
Or maybe the Emirates crews, tech and cabin, want QF to get rid of the crew rests and replace them with the box they call a crew rest in the back of the economy cabin.
The list could go on. Is it just a rumour or is there some media release to confirm it.
The fleet is about 50% done so far with another in Manila right now. I think this is just a beat up.
Or maybe they want QF to do away with the troublesome first class suites and install the more troublesome shower system.
Or maybe the Emirates crews, tech and cabin, want QF to get rid of the crew rests and replace them with the box they call a crew rest in the back of the economy cabin.
The list could go on. Is it just a rumour or is there some media release to confirm it.
The fleet is about 50% done so far with another in Manila right now. I think this is just a beat up.
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If I remember correctly , wasn't 380 no 13 and on going to be configured with no 1st class?
Well if 13 and 14 are going to have accelerated deliveries , as alluded to in PPRUNE, management had better re hash their number of heads to chop...
As the latest cuts are based on current fleet size ... Or so they say..
On a side note, there seems to be a lot more cabin log write ups these days about urine soiled seats .... Seems to coincide with the new config .
Anyway ... Thread drift ...
Well if 13 and 14 are going to have accelerated deliveries , as alluded to in PPRUNE, management had better re hash their number of heads to chop...
As the latest cuts are based on current fleet size ... Or so they say..
On a side note, there seems to be a lot more cabin log write ups these days about urine soiled seats .... Seems to coincide with the new config .
Anyway ... Thread drift ...
I can't see why EK would care about the QF 380 config. Its just a codeshare agreement where QF gets to carry all the SYD and MEL QF pax that want to travel to LHR (well at least some of them), and EK gets to carry everyone else.
The Don
I may have it wrong but I can't see it being a good thing for OZ aviation careers.
The Don
I may have it wrong but I can't see it being a good thing for OZ aviation careers.
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Keg,
LCC Longhaul is absolutely the way to go.
I was out at Sydney International Airport recently & checked just how many departures that day were actually LCC's.
With a whooping 7 out of the 85 departures (8% of the total) operated by Air Asia (1), Scoot (1) & Jetstar International (5).
It's a clear sign that the Low Cost Longhaul model is the choice of carrier for International Travellers.
The proof is it the numbers. Can't you see it !!
Out of the 30 different airlines, Qantas Mainline had the majority of aircraft International services at 15 (17% of the total) Or if you choose to include Jetconnect in those figures 24 services (or 28% of total)
MC
LCC Longhaul is absolutely the way to go.
I was out at Sydney International Airport recently & checked just how many departures that day were actually LCC's.
With a whooping 7 out of the 85 departures (8% of the total) operated by Air Asia (1), Scoot (1) & Jetstar International (5).
It's a clear sign that the Low Cost Longhaul model is the choice of carrier for International Travellers.
The proof is it the numbers. Can't you see it !!
Out of the 30 different airlines, Qantas Mainline had the majority of aircraft International services at 15 (17% of the total) Or if you choose to include Jetconnect in those figures 24 services (or 28% of total)
MC
Doubt if EK have any interest in the subject but I do know EK are concerned about some issues of the agreement and quoting QF incompetence. An example is QF selling PER-SIN with a BA connection to LHR and vice versa.
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Word on the street is that EK is not happy with our new design.
The reconfig is Qantas's idea and to be completed on Qantas a/c.
There is no info to say that under the current "draft "agreement tacitly approved by the ACCC, that would allow EK to dictate such terms to QF
EK was already aware of the config before the agreement.
WHat EK will do, if they haven't already done so, is "Map" Qantas management. They will determine who is competent and who isn't as well as who is weak or strong and what the political landscape looks like.
They will then execute the following strategy:
1. Suck the brains out of Qantas management.
2. Manipulate Qantas business strategy to suit EK.
3. Turn Qantas into a virtual EK business unit with no possibility of operating as a stand alone business ever again without major recapitalisation and investment.
The tactics to execute item (1) are:
(a) Hire or second any talented Qantas managers into EK from where they will be tasked with "managing" the relationship with Qantas
(b) Arranging the firing of any talented Qantas manager who won't get with the EK program. This is easily done by a word in Alan Joyces ear that "XXX is threatening the success of our brilliant partnership".
Executing item (2) is simply done by telling the remaining (dumb) Qantas managers that they should take advantage of EK's capabilities to achieve even bigger cost savings by closing Australian operations in favour of using EK's. That will no doubt include "harmonising" training and operational regimes between the companies as far as possible over time.
Again, anyone who won't suck up to EK and do their bidding will be fired on the grounds that they are threatening the success of Alans brilliant business decision. I would expect that even the dumbest Qantas manager would know that by now.
The resulting deskilling and disinvestment leaves Qantas totally dependent on EK by the end of the agreement
Maybe, EK interests in the QF A380 program is the first step in this direction?
They will then execute the following strategy:
1. Suck the brains out of Qantas management.
2. Manipulate Qantas business strategy to suit EK.
3. Turn Qantas into a virtual EK business unit with no possibility of operating as a stand alone business ever again without major recapitalisation and investment.
The tactics to execute item (1) are:
(a) Hire or second any talented Qantas managers into EK from where they will be tasked with "managing" the relationship with Qantas
(b) Arranging the firing of any talented Qantas manager who won't get with the EK program. This is easily done by a word in Alan Joyces ear that "XXX is threatening the success of our brilliant partnership".
Executing item (2) is simply done by telling the remaining (dumb) Qantas managers that they should take advantage of EK's capabilities to achieve even bigger cost savings by closing Australian operations in favour of using EK's. That will no doubt include "harmonising" training and operational regimes between the companies as far as possible over time.
Again, anyone who won't suck up to EK and do their bidding will be fired on the grounds that they are threatening the success of Alans brilliant business decision. I would expect that even the dumbest Qantas manager would know that by now.
The resulting deskilling and disinvestment leaves Qantas totally dependent on EK by the end of the agreement
Maybe, EK interests in the QF A380 program is the first step in this direction?
Last edited by Sunfish; 5th Jan 2013 at 19:16.
I doubt JQ has anything to do with the rumor, as for their loads, they are not bad if you look at the BITRE figures for Sept (In/Out)
Jetstar
China
67.8 72.7
Fiji
79.5 87.6
Indonesia
80.1 85.9
Japan
60.3 75.8
New Zealand
71.6 77.7
Philippines -
.. 82.2
Singapore
68.7 73.1
Thailand
71.3 77.9
USA
78.4 89.5
Jetstar ALL SERVICES
71.0 79.4
Jetstar Asia Singapore
73.4 81.9
Qantas Airways
Chile
74.8 90.2
China
74.7 82.3
Germany
88.9 91.2
Hong Kong (SAR)
77.3 69.4
Indonesia
73.7 84.1
Japan
74.1 93.3
New Caledonia
78.9 87.4
New Zealand
67.7 71.2
Papua New Guinea
70.8 64.3
Philippines
78.7 82.0
Singapore
79.4 78.0
South Africa
85.6 85.1
Thailand
89.8 90.3
UK
91.7 87.0
Jetstar
China
67.8 72.7
Fiji
79.5 87.6
Indonesia
80.1 85.9
Japan
60.3 75.8
New Zealand
71.6 77.7
Philippines -
.. 82.2
Singapore
68.7 73.1
Thailand
71.3 77.9
USA
78.4 89.5
Jetstar ALL SERVICES
71.0 79.4
Jetstar Asia Singapore
73.4 81.9
Qantas Airways
Chile
74.8 90.2
China
74.7 82.3
Germany
88.9 91.2
Hong Kong (SAR)
77.3 69.4
Indonesia
73.7 84.1
Japan
74.1 93.3
New Caledonia
78.9 87.4
New Zealand
67.7 71.2
Papua New Guinea
70.8 64.3
Philippines
78.7 82.0
Singapore
79.4 78.0
South Africa
85.6 85.1
Thailand
89.8 90.3
UK
91.7 87.0
Last edited by markis10; 5th Jan 2013 at 21:17.
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What are the overheads?! Jetstar I suppose. If they can't turn a profit with 80%+ loads, perhaps a clean out of the costing department is needed instead of burying half the airline.
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Quote: Looking at those load factors, can someone smarter than me please explain why they are pulling out of Frankfurt!?!? What am I missing here?
Filling a plane is easy. Filling it with passengers willing to pay a fare that will make a profit is a different story.
Filling a plane is easy. Filling it with passengers willing to pay a fare that will make a profit is a different story.
I was sent this email by a mate, I apologise if it has been seen before, but it makes interesting reading. Nothing new really, just the same old depressing game plan we know and love
It amazes me how poorly researched "investigative journalists" in this country
really are. They generally regurgitate company spin and never really look at
the numbers in any great detail.
Jetstar was never a good idea; no full service carrier in the world has
successfully managed to do what Qantas management have attempted to do.
Jetstar Asia has never made a true operating profit. It has bled Qantas to the
tune of $70M + per annum since its inception in 2004. Loss to the group
$500-700M.
Jetstar Pacific prior to its nationalisation by the Vietnamese government in
2012 cost its parent $50-60M per annum just to keep the doors open, stated by
the CEO of that airline himself in the Vietnamese Post. Do a simple google
Ticky. Founded in 2007 thats at least $200M blown.
Jetstar HK. $100M and they haven't even got approval yet.
Jetstar Japan another $100M.
Jetstar international ex Australia, $500M loss, its inception in 2008
dovetails neatly with QF international's sliding "profitability". QF
international is not haemorrhaging money of its own accord, it is paying for
all these disasters out of its operating profit. Where else do you think the
money is coming from??
John Borghetti himself stated privately that Jetstar has never made a cent in
any of its incarnations. A simple close look at load factors vs revenue of
each operating segment shows that. Yet the mainstream media just regurgitates
the tripe QF management has been spinning for years.
The only reason these airlines where created was to park 110 Airbus A320's.
Aircraft whose leases were going to GAAM amongst others, routed through
Ireland and onto the Caymans and The British Virgin Islands. Guess who was
profiting from those?
That's the primary reason why Joyce was placed by Dixon in the top job and why
Borghetti was sidelined. Because he wouldn't play ball. Buchanan was fired
because he wrote a paper outlining the fact that the low cost carrier model
does not work beyond 5 hours flight time. In house legal resigned, company
secretary resigned, company auditor, resigned. All left the sinking ship
fearing the mother of all corporate collapses.
Joyce took it too far due to his ego being completely bound by the folly that
is Jetstar and was facing a corporate collapse soon enough due to his utter
ineptitude and inability to run an airline. Any airline.
They were trying desperately to do a deal with Temasek in Singapore until the
11th hour but couldn't get it over the line for the simple reason that SQ
management detest Qantas management, as do Cathay. Joyce was a dead man
walking and in desperate need of any deal to save his skin.
Emirates saw a bleeding man and took full advantage. Qantas is doomed with
this man at the helm and frankly it is a sad state of affairs where a Dixon
alternative is the preferred option.
Simple maths, the year Joyce became CEO in 2008 Jetstar international ex
Australia was launched. The Qantas group made a $1.6BN profit in 2008 of which
Jetstar's domestic reported contribution was a negligible amount, less that
10% of the total. A figure which in itself is questionable seeing as Jetstar's
costs have always been subsidized by QF international. This was on the back of
multiple record profits over many years.
Every year Joyce has been CEO has seen a substantial drop in operating profit,
share price, no dividend etc, culminating in a disastrous grounding which cost
over $200M, a massive figure allocated of course to the international division
and pre-planned long in advance of it actually taking place.
The often quoted drop in passenger numbers to 18% of the total Australian
traffic is again, a furphy faithfully regurgitated by the Chairman's lounged
mainstream financial media.
The Qantas group still holds 28% of the total, 10% of Qantas International's
traffic having been gifted to Jetstar International and Jetconnect since 2008,
neither entity having made a profit since inception. This "gifting" dovetails
precisely with Qantas International's supposed demise. The gifting of that 10%
not only cost mainline 100's of millions in set up and operating costs it also
robbed mainline of the revenue it would have earned throughout this time. A
double whammy. The Qantas group incidentally held 34% at the time of
privatisation in 1992.
All for a series of Jetstar airlines that no one aside from those who work
there, the hapless CEO who "created" it , and the bankers at GAAM and Investec
who profited from the aircraft leases generated by their expansion, would
mourn its passing if they were made to stand on their own two feet.
A shareholder activist take over of control at QF would be the best thing that
could happen at this time. This is a completely different proposition to the
APA bid, a bid incidentally that Joyce was a great cheerleader for and which
would have netted him in excess of $20M had it gone through, something he has
conveniently forgotten now. One wonders how much he will be making out of the
Emirates deal if it goes ahead. A question nobody seems to be asking, if
Qantas is such a basket case, why are the ex managers of the business so keen
to buy it? What do they know that the market hasn't been told?
Qantas should not be in this position, however now that it is, it is a matter
of national security if nothing else that the Emirates deal is stopped and the
senior management and Board are replaced with people who have full service
airline experience, many of whom (me included) jumped ship and are now happily
at Virgin under Borghetti, the man who should have gotten the nod in the first
place.
In his own words to a management conference call not so long ago, "We have
nothing to worry about whilst Joyce is running Qantas."
It amazes me how poorly researched "investigative journalists" in this country
really are. They generally regurgitate company spin and never really look at
the numbers in any great detail.
Jetstar was never a good idea; no full service carrier in the world has
successfully managed to do what Qantas management have attempted to do.
Jetstar Asia has never made a true operating profit. It has bled Qantas to the
tune of $70M + per annum since its inception in 2004. Loss to the group
$500-700M.
Jetstar Pacific prior to its nationalisation by the Vietnamese government in
2012 cost its parent $50-60M per annum just to keep the doors open, stated by
the CEO of that airline himself in the Vietnamese Post. Do a simple google
Ticky. Founded in 2007 thats at least $200M blown.
Jetstar HK. $100M and they haven't even got approval yet.
Jetstar Japan another $100M.
Jetstar international ex Australia, $500M loss, its inception in 2008
dovetails neatly with QF international's sliding "profitability". QF
international is not haemorrhaging money of its own accord, it is paying for
all these disasters out of its operating profit. Where else do you think the
money is coming from??
John Borghetti himself stated privately that Jetstar has never made a cent in
any of its incarnations. A simple close look at load factors vs revenue of
each operating segment shows that. Yet the mainstream media just regurgitates
the tripe QF management has been spinning for years.
The only reason these airlines where created was to park 110 Airbus A320's.
Aircraft whose leases were going to GAAM amongst others, routed through
Ireland and onto the Caymans and The British Virgin Islands. Guess who was
profiting from those?
That's the primary reason why Joyce was placed by Dixon in the top job and why
Borghetti was sidelined. Because he wouldn't play ball. Buchanan was fired
because he wrote a paper outlining the fact that the low cost carrier model
does not work beyond 5 hours flight time. In house legal resigned, company
secretary resigned, company auditor, resigned. All left the sinking ship
fearing the mother of all corporate collapses.
Joyce took it too far due to his ego being completely bound by the folly that
is Jetstar and was facing a corporate collapse soon enough due to his utter
ineptitude and inability to run an airline. Any airline.
They were trying desperately to do a deal with Temasek in Singapore until the
11th hour but couldn't get it over the line for the simple reason that SQ
management detest Qantas management, as do Cathay. Joyce was a dead man
walking and in desperate need of any deal to save his skin.
Emirates saw a bleeding man and took full advantage. Qantas is doomed with
this man at the helm and frankly it is a sad state of affairs where a Dixon
alternative is the preferred option.
Simple maths, the year Joyce became CEO in 2008 Jetstar international ex
Australia was launched. The Qantas group made a $1.6BN profit in 2008 of which
Jetstar's domestic reported contribution was a negligible amount, less that
10% of the total. A figure which in itself is questionable seeing as Jetstar's
costs have always been subsidized by QF international. This was on the back of
multiple record profits over many years.
Every year Joyce has been CEO has seen a substantial drop in operating profit,
share price, no dividend etc, culminating in a disastrous grounding which cost
over $200M, a massive figure allocated of course to the international division
and pre-planned long in advance of it actually taking place.
The often quoted drop in passenger numbers to 18% of the total Australian
traffic is again, a furphy faithfully regurgitated by the Chairman's lounged
mainstream financial media.
The Qantas group still holds 28% of the total, 10% of Qantas International's
traffic having been gifted to Jetstar International and Jetconnect since 2008,
neither entity having made a profit since inception. This "gifting" dovetails
precisely with Qantas International's supposed demise. The gifting of that 10%
not only cost mainline 100's of millions in set up and operating costs it also
robbed mainline of the revenue it would have earned throughout this time. A
double whammy. The Qantas group incidentally held 34% at the time of
privatisation in 1992.
All for a series of Jetstar airlines that no one aside from those who work
there, the hapless CEO who "created" it , and the bankers at GAAM and Investec
who profited from the aircraft leases generated by their expansion, would
mourn its passing if they were made to stand on their own two feet.
A shareholder activist take over of control at QF would be the best thing that
could happen at this time. This is a completely different proposition to the
APA bid, a bid incidentally that Joyce was a great cheerleader for and which
would have netted him in excess of $20M had it gone through, something he has
conveniently forgotten now. One wonders how much he will be making out of the
Emirates deal if it goes ahead. A question nobody seems to be asking, if
Qantas is such a basket case, why are the ex managers of the business so keen
to buy it? What do they know that the market hasn't been told?
Qantas should not be in this position, however now that it is, it is a matter
of national security if nothing else that the Emirates deal is stopped and the
senior management and Board are replaced with people who have full service
airline experience, many of whom (me included) jumped ship and are now happily
at Virgin under Borghetti, the man who should have gotten the nod in the first
place.
In his own words to a management conference call not so long ago, "We have
nothing to worry about whilst Joyce is running Qantas."
Last edited by V-Jet; 6th Jan 2013 at 23:35.