Gregg, Dixon, Carnegie, Singo make a play on QF
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Liv, if you close your eyes and think of the words "John Singleton", what is the first thought that comes to mind? For me it is ADVERTISING. He is an expert in the science of modern propaganda ("The aim of modern propaganda is no longer to modify ideas, but to provoke action." -Jacques Ellull, Propaganda).
He is first and foremost a salesman, and he is "selling "you a future, his future: a vision of returning a once glorious airline to its proper and rightful place in the Australian psyche. In your case, he has provoked action, to suspend disbelief and back HIS plan and actively attempt to convince others, against all the uncomfortable feelings you clearly have.
The reason he wants to do a deal with the unions is to garner their support, to back his plan against that of the current managers in Canberra and fund manager suites. He is expecting the unions to then put the pressure on whoever he believes will achieve his objective.
The rock solid iron clad guarantee won't be worth the paper its printed on once the asset strip & looting has been completed and the carcass is left behind into bankruptcy/liquidation/re-organisation.
There is a well established historical account of the looting process engaged in by managers of Singo's ilk. Think of this paper, by 2001 economic Nobel Prize winner George Akerlof as their template: Looting the Economic Underworld for Profit.
He is first and foremost a salesman, and he is "selling "you a future, his future: a vision of returning a once glorious airline to its proper and rightful place in the Australian psyche. In your case, he has provoked action, to suspend disbelief and back HIS plan and actively attempt to convince others, against all the uncomfortable feelings you clearly have.
The reason he wants to do a deal with the unions is to garner their support, to back his plan against that of the current managers in Canberra and fund manager suites. He is expecting the unions to then put the pressure on whoever he believes will achieve his objective.
The rock solid iron clad guarantee won't be worth the paper its printed on once the asset strip & looting has been completed and the carcass is left behind into bankruptcy/liquidation/re-organisation.
There is a well established historical account of the looting process engaged in by managers of Singo's ilk. Think of this paper, by 2001 economic Nobel Prize winner George Akerlof as their template: Looting the Economic Underworld for Profit.
Last edited by TheWholeEnchilada; 14th Dec 2012 at 04:12.
Liv, I don't have time to explain. Replacing the cash with debt will kill the airline. Spending the cash to retire debt will kill the airline. Joyce will kill the airline and Dixon will kill it as well as you know it.
What you are watching is the hyenas fighting over who gets to eat the body. At this stage it will be Emirates that gets to eat the lions share.
Without the sudden appearance of a management group that has an interest in Qantas going forward as a going concern as an Australian owned public company, it has no future. It is currently the plaything of some very rich and greedy people.
None of them have any interest in what the staff think or want. None of them have any interest in what the public want. None of them have any concern for the tourist industry or the national interest. Everything they do is strictly legal, but is it moral?
And the small mum and dad shareholder? Hahahahahahahahahah!
What you are watching is the hyenas fighting over who gets to eat the body. At this stage it will be Emirates that gets to eat the lions share.
Without the sudden appearance of a management group that has an interest in Qantas going forward as a going concern as an Australian owned public company, it has no future. It is currently the plaything of some very rich and greedy people.
None of them have any interest in what the staff think or want. None of them have any interest in what the public want. None of them have any concern for the tourist industry or the national interest. Everything they do is strictly legal, but is it moral?
And the small mum and dad shareholder? Hahahahahahahahahah!
Last edited by Sunfish; 14th Dec 2012 at 04:47.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out where the money is in aviation.
Let the airline take all the risk selling tickets and providing infrastructure. The real money is made in owning the airliner and leasing it to the airlines. The leasing company gets paid regardless. It gets a guaranteed hourly rate. There is barely any risk, palm it off to another airline if need be. The model is in huge demand anyway. It will always make money. Half the times they don't even own the engines. If one goes bang, the power by the hour manufacturer slaps on another and the cash game continues.
Have a look at how many different shelf companies own the major airlines fleet in Australia.
So who is tied up with all this? That is the question. I wonder if Joyce has his fingers in any of those pies.
Conflict of interest?
Let the airline take all the risk selling tickets and providing infrastructure. The real money is made in owning the airliner and leasing it to the airlines. The leasing company gets paid regardless. It gets a guaranteed hourly rate. There is barely any risk, palm it off to another airline if need be. The model is in huge demand anyway. It will always make money. Half the times they don't even own the engines. If one goes bang, the power by the hour manufacturer slaps on another and the cash game continues.
Have a look at how many different shelf companies own the major airlines fleet in Australia.
So who is tied up with all this? That is the question. I wonder if Joyce has his fingers in any of those pies.
Conflict of interest?
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TWE,
Agree with everything you've said there. You are right, I don't feel comfortable. The thing is, the uncomfortable feelings I have about Joyce continuing to run the company outweigh the uncomfortable feelings I have about dealing with the Dixon group. I wish there was another option but there isn't.
I guess one advantage is we are aware what they are capable of and we can try and mitigate the threat. At this stage, the onus is on them to convince us (legally) that they will not asset strip the company and will act in Qantas' best interest, or we walk away. And even if that is the end result, if we can make Joyce look like a fool in the process then it will have been worthwhile.
Sunfish,
When you get time, can explain why retiring debt will kill the airline? I can understand why it's not optimal but I don't see how it would be the end of the company.
None of it's moral, and the only things that are legal are what they can't get away with 
Agree with everything you've said there. You are right, I don't feel comfortable. The thing is, the uncomfortable feelings I have about Joyce continuing to run the company outweigh the uncomfortable feelings I have about dealing with the Dixon group. I wish there was another option but there isn't.
I guess one advantage is we are aware what they are capable of and we can try and mitigate the threat. At this stage, the onus is on them to convince us (legally) that they will not asset strip the company and will act in Qantas' best interest, or we walk away. And even if that is the end result, if we can make Joyce look like a fool in the process then it will have been worthwhile.
Sunfish,
When you get time, can explain why retiring debt will kill the airline? I can understand why it's not optimal but I don't see how it would be the end of the company.
Everything they do is strictly legal, but is it moral?
Last edited by Livs Hairdresser; 14th Dec 2012 at 05:25.
Livvy, "debt" covers a multitude of things. What matters is what
Kind of debt it is. Is it credit card (17% paid by the month) or long term debt like a thirty year mortgage fixed at 5%? You don't want to pay off that sort of debt.
Airlines generate simply huge cash flows, look at the fuel bill for example. As a result they need huge amounts of working capital which I'm pretty sure the three billion covers.
The standard Bain and company trick was to take a company private, strip out all the cash in management fees, dividends and god knows what other instruments. They then find a banker greedy and stupid enough to lend the company money to replace the cash usually by offering really high rates. They then sell their shares to some wood duck and walk away. The company may very well fold under the weight of debt servicing costs but by then the culprits are long gone.
To put that another way, think of buying a Rolls Royce, pulling the engine out, selling it for $$$$$ and replacing it with a Hyundai four cylinder engine from a wrecker. You then sell the car again as a Rolls Royce. Yes, bankers are that stupid.
Kind of debt it is. Is it credit card (17% paid by the month) or long term debt like a thirty year mortgage fixed at 5%? You don't want to pay off that sort of debt.
Airlines generate simply huge cash flows, look at the fuel bill for example. As a result they need huge amounts of working capital which I'm pretty sure the three billion covers.
The standard Bain and company trick was to take a company private, strip out all the cash in management fees, dividends and god knows what other instruments. They then find a banker greedy and stupid enough to lend the company money to replace the cash usually by offering really high rates. They then sell their shares to some wood duck and walk away. The company may very well fold under the weight of debt servicing costs but by then the culprits are long gone.
To put that another way, think of buying a Rolls Royce, pulling the engine out, selling it for $$$$$ and replacing it with a Hyundai four cylinder engine from a wrecker. You then sell the car again as a Rolls Royce. Yes, bankers are that stupid.
Last edited by Sunfish; 14th Dec 2012 at 21:43.
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Yes, bankers are that stupid.
Bankers aren't stupid they are chasing a loophole in the system that allows this.
What is stupid is the simple fact that its totally legal to stump up a miniscule amount of money, get a massive loan and use the soon to be purchased company as collateral for the loan. Pay themselves exorbitant management fees and suck the cash out.
When companies fail after that sort of purchase, the banksters should be put in jail because they are pieces of **** in society. They contribute nothing but profit to their own bank account and destroy the lives of those in the way. No wonder they were strung up at various times in history.
What is stupid is the simple fact that its totally legal to stump up a miniscule amount of money, get a massive loan and use the soon to be purchased company as collateral for the loan. Pay themselves exorbitant management fees and suck the cash out.
When companies fail after that sort of purchase, the banksters should be put in jail because they are pieces of **** in society. They contribute nothing but profit to their own bank account and destroy the lives of those in the way. No wonder they were strung up at various times in history.
Last edited by 600ft-lb; 14th Dec 2012 at 23:39.
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go figure....
Qantas & Virgin Australia look for new Asian partners: China Eastern for Qantas, Cathay for Virgin? | CAPA - Centre for Aviation
Sort of confuses things a bit....? 
never a dull moment.. the game is on again in Asia for Qantas (not J*..?)..... Hmm
if anything, this Gregg, Dixon, Carnegie, Singo play on QF talk, has got em all wound up.... off to the supermarket to get some of that microwave popcorn.. suspect a bit of "PR word mincing" going on here...
Meanwhile, over at TA, it appears GD is clawing back some of the lost dosh from Q pulling out of its relationship... not sure where all this is headed....,
Qantas & Virgin Australia look for new Asian partners: China Eastern for Qantas, Cathay for Virgin?
Qantas and China Eastern are nudging each other for a deeper partnership to cover Australia-China traffic flows. Feelings are warm on both sides; all that is missing is the time and resources to complete a deal. Qantas is busy with its Emirates partnership as well as continuing network improvements, including its loss-making international network, while China Eastern is a slower moving company and concentrating on its own rapid expansion. The two of course are also busy with their joint venture LCC, Jetstar Hong Kong.
Their thunder may be stolen by a more agile Virgin Australia, which has set as its next strategic development a partnership with another Asian carrier – and one most likely to be in North Asia to facilitate better connections around the region than Virgin can achieve with its Asian partner Singapore Airlines.
Cathay Pacific could be a strong partner for Virgin: besides network synergies, they both share a common competitor in Qantas. A stumbling block is that Cathay and Qantas are both members of oneworld, but Cathay is an ambivalent member, and either way global marketing alliances are losing muster as partnership dynamics revert to a bilateral focus.
Qantas and China Eastern are nudging each other for a deeper partnership to cover Australia-China traffic flows. Feelings are warm on both sides; all that is missing is the time and resources to complete a deal. Qantas is busy with its Emirates partnership as well as continuing network improvements, including its loss-making international network, while China Eastern is a slower moving company and concentrating on its own rapid expansion. The two of course are also busy with their joint venture LCC, Jetstar Hong Kong.
Their thunder may be stolen by a more agile Virgin Australia, which has set as its next strategic development a partnership with another Asian carrier – and one most likely to be in North Asia to facilitate better connections around the region than Virgin can achieve with its Asian partner Singapore Airlines.
Cathay Pacific could be a strong partner for Virgin: besides network synergies, they both share a common competitor in Qantas. A stumbling block is that Cathay and Qantas are both members of oneworld, but Cathay is an ambivalent member, and either way global marketing alliances are losing muster as partnership dynamics revert to a bilateral focus.
never a dull moment.. the game is on again in Asia for Qantas (not J*..?)..... Hmm
if anything, this Gregg, Dixon, Carnegie, Singo play on QF talk, has got em all wound up.... off to the supermarket to get some of that microwave popcorn.. suspect a bit of "PR word mincing" going on here...
Meanwhile, over at TA, it appears GD is clawing back some of the lost dosh from Q pulling out of its relationship... not sure where all this is headed....,
Etihad fills the Qantas tourism breach
AIRLINE giant Etihad will today sign a $6 million strategic partnership with Tourism Australia, giving the government's tourism body unprecedented scope in selling the nation to the world.
Etihad fills the Qantas tourism breach | thetelegraph.com.au
AIRLINE giant Etihad will today sign a $6 million strategic partnership with Tourism Australia, giving the government's tourism body unprecedented scope in selling the nation to the world.
Etihad fills the Qantas tourism breach | thetelegraph.com.au
Last edited by TIMA9X; 16th Dec 2012 at 14:48.
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Tima9x,
Not exactly new news.
Joyce at Press Club 9 October, just after EK deal announced
Ka.Boom
Agree on China Southern as a match for Virgin - more virtual networks, Southern does all the flying but Virgin helps with distribution... something Cathay doesn't need as much.
Albeit not sure how happy Singapore and Etihad would be given the promotion China Southern is putting in to the Canton Route to Europe
Not exactly new news.
Joyce at Press Club 9 October, just after EK deal announced
Dubai will complement Los Angeles and Dallas, the gateways to North America; Santiago for South America; Johannesburg for Southern Africa; and Singapore and Hong Kong for Asia.
Emirates will complement our relationships with American Airlines, LAN, South African Airways and China Eastern, along with oneworld™.
Emirates will complement our relationships with American Airlines, LAN, South African Airways and China Eastern, along with oneworld™.
Agree on China Southern as a match for Virgin - more virtual networks, Southern does all the flying but Virgin helps with distribution... something Cathay doesn't need as much.
Albeit not sure how happy Singapore and Etihad would be given the promotion China Southern is putting in to the Canton Route to Europe
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not sure where all this is headed
Pretty sure that DJ is circling QF with powerful friends and serious firepower, so Dubai is going to look like the desert from Australia.
If Cathay was pulled off then that just about does it all in routes. Reputational damage to QF would be significant, but they don't seem to care about that unless it suits the bigger game at play.
Pretty sure that DJ is circling QF with powerful friends and serious firepower, so Dubai is going to look like the desert from Australia.
If Cathay was pulled off then that just about does it all in routes. Reputational damage to QF would be significant, but they don't seem to care about that unless it suits the bigger game at play.
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Not exactly new news.
Joyce at Press Club 9 October, just after EK deal announced
Joyce at Press Club 9 October, just after EK deal announced
moa999, Agree, in fact this video goes back to March... I should have written it better... what I meant to say was who is teaming up with who...? brand Qantas or Jetstar... both very different products... which is confusing the punter. For me JB is much clearer with his announcements/direction for Virgin Aus and partners... Joyce is all over the place... one minute he talks about Jetstar, then it all lurches back to Qantas, then it becomes Qantas group.. which is it? I think it is clear, punters who chose brand Qantas expect to fly Qantas with no surprises like ending up on a J* codeshare flights.
If Qantas wants access to greater China, what the blazes is wrong with Cathay / Dragonair?!
Last edited by TIMA9X; 18th Dec 2012 at 03:05.
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Cathay/Dragonair is useless if you want to fly around inside China.
All flights go to/from HK.
---
Also totally unsure why Scoot and SilkAir are in the above picture.
Neither have any benefits for Virgin flyers.
All flights go to/from HK.
---
Also totally unsure why Scoot and SilkAir are in the above picture.
Neither have any benefits for Virgin flyers.
Last edited by moa999; 17th Dec 2012 at 09:41.
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VA codeshares on nearly all Silk Air flights. Velocity frequent flyer members can earn miles and status credits on Silk Air flights as well.
Scoot - no benefits to Velocity flyers.
Scoot - no benefits to Velocity flyers.
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Moa,
Understood but is the idea to benefit from internal domestics, or accessing a destination? How much Australian-originated domestic traffic is there?
That is, is QF trying to benefit from domestic say Kunming - Xian, or from traffic going between Australia and Xian (necessarily going via an intermediate port)?
I'd assume the latter, in which case QF should be agnostic as to the intermediate port but rather should be concerned with the customer experience in getting the punter to their destination.
Personally if given a choice in getting from Oz to anywhere in the PRC, I'd suggest most Oz punters might have a preference for Cathay / Dragonair.
Understood but is the idea to benefit from internal domestics, or accessing a destination? How much Australian-originated domestic traffic is there?
That is, is QF trying to benefit from domestic say Kunming - Xian, or from traffic going between Australia and Xian (necessarily going via an intermediate port)?
I'd assume the latter, in which case QF should be agnostic as to the intermediate port but rather should be concerned with the customer experience in getting the punter to their destination.
Personally if given a choice in getting from Oz to anywhere in the PRC, I'd suggest most Oz punters might have a preference for Cathay / Dragonair.
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For gawd's sake, why China Eastern?
If Qantas wants access to greater China, what the blazes is wrong with Cathay / Dragonair?!
If Qantas wants access to greater China, what the blazes is wrong with Cathay / Dragonair?!
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Freehills, exactly....
But then to be honest I can't quite work out what Emirates sees in Qantas, or indeed Singapore and Etihad see in Virgin apart from access to the FF program, with Cathay already has access to via oneworld
I also suspect Cathay was never exactly that happy with Qantas flying HKG-LHR (now stopped), and the Jetstar HK thing.
But then to be honest I can't quite work out what Emirates sees in Qantas, or indeed Singapore and Etihad see in Virgin apart from access to the FF program, with Cathay already has access to via oneworld
I also suspect Cathay was never exactly that happy with Qantas flying HKG-LHR (now stopped), and the Jetstar HK thing.
I also suspect Cathay was never exactly that happy with Qantas flying HKG-LHR (now stopped), and the Jetstar HK thing.
I think the benefit to CX/SQ/EK/EY capacity dumping A380's and 777's multiple times each day to every major city in this country somewhat outweighs a single 747's worth of pax to LHR or a pesky, hopefully 18 airframe by 2015 upstart.
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China Eastern, very high standards.
Heard on Melbourne centre a few days ago, "China Eastern xx, wind at Melbourne 220/15 knots, 12 knots crosswind runways 27 and 16, runways wet, which runway do you prefer ?
"Ah China Eastern xx we take runway 34"
"China Eastern xx cleared Arbey arrival runway 16"
Heard on Melbourne centre a few days ago, "China Eastern xx, wind at Melbourne 220/15 knots, 12 knots crosswind runways 27 and 16, runways wet, which runway do you prefer ?
"Ah China Eastern xx we take runway 34"
"China Eastern xx cleared Arbey arrival runway 16"