Virgin aircraft near miss
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Virgin aircraft near miss
from the SMH
Virgin plane's mid-air near miss with business jet
Andrew Heasley
March 7, 2012 - 4:18PM
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Within a fortnight of Australia's air safety bureau announcing a wide ranging investigation into air traffic control failings, it has revealed details of another mid-air near miss involving an airliner.
A Melbourne-bound Virgin Blue Boeing 737 and a business charter jet had been put on a head-on course, this time by defence department air controllers overseeing Newcastle Airport in NSW, which handles miliary and civilian aircraft movements.
The jets were travelling towards each other at a closing speed of more than 1000km/h at almost the same altitude over Newcastle (the Boeing climbing to 5000 feet after taking-off from Newcastle Airport , the business jet descending to 5000 feet to land).
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At their closest, the two jets came within 122 metres vertically and 1300 metres horizontally of each other — a third of the required safe distances — as the airliner pilots responded to a cockpit collision warning and shed altitude.
The Virgin pilots saw the business jet flash past in front of them; the business jet pilots said they never saw the Boeing 737.
Two air controllers were each looking after one of the aircraft, without communicating with one another, "resulting in both aircraft being assigned the same level [altitude] and with conflicting tracks [flight paths]," investigators said.
An automated near-miss alert function had been disabled on the controllers' screens because military aircraft movements — particularly formation flying — set off too many false alarms.
Alarmed air traffic controllers in Brisbane contacted them to query if they were aware of the impending collision course.
One defence controller belatedly issued a safety alert to the business jet's pilots, but only after the planes had crossed. The other controller did not issue a safety alert to the Virgin pilots.
A 14-month investigation, released today, into the February 1 incident last year found it was one of 10 such near misses by defence controllers in 18 months, exposing significant training deficiencies.
It found gaping holes in the defence department's air traffic controller training: the department did not provide initial or ongoing training to controllers to handle a near miss scenario and did not clearly define aircraft separation responsibilities.
The department has subsequently revised its training content, delivery and personnel testing.
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau has launched a wide ranging investigation into near misses that have occurred between 2008 and 2011, putting the defence department and the civilian controllers, Airservices Australia, under the microscope.
Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-...#ixzz1oPylLA5N
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Why o' why do we continue to post threads quoting the media?
You know it will only provoke a knee-jerk reaction about the lack of knowledge of matters aviation from the 4th estate.
Is there a link to an ATSB report perhaps?
You know it will only provoke a knee-jerk reaction about the lack of knowledge of matters aviation from the 4th estate.
Is there a link to an ATSB report perhaps?
When you live....
There is an ATSB report - and the media aren't actually scaremongering because it really did nearly happen....
Investigation: AO-2011-011 - Breakdown of separation - Boeing B737, VH-VBK and Israel Aircraft Industries Westwind 1124, VH-AJG, 22 km South of Williamtown (Newcastle Airport), NSW, 1 February 2011
Thank god for TCAS - them holes had well and truly lined up......
Investigation: AO-2011-011 - Breakdown of separation - Boeing B737, VH-VBK and Israel Aircraft Industries Westwind 1124, VH-AJG, 22 km South of Williamtown (Newcastle Airport), NSW, 1 February 2011
Thank god for TCAS - them holes had well and truly lined up......
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You have to admit, some military control zones can be a threat, I often brief them as such.
Non-sensical vectors, step-down arrivals, poor traffic management and far from accurate weather reporting.
Willytown, Townsville and Darwin, in my experience, are disorganised, difficult places to arrive into.
A guy I know suggested..."just turn off your transponder and go in low"
Non-sensical vectors, step-down arrivals, poor traffic management and far from accurate weather reporting.
Willytown, Townsville and Darwin, in my experience, are disorganised, difficult places to arrive into.
A guy I know suggested..."just turn off your transponder and go in low"
Likewise,I always discuss the dangers of entering military Airspace with F/O's I don't regularly fly with.
It's not always the unexpected, quite often expect the rediculous and NEVER simply do as instructed.
It's not always the unexpected, quite often expect the rediculous and NEVER simply do as instructed.
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I second RENURPP! Twice, into TL I unfortunately was radar vectored below the Radar LSALT. Only because I frequented the place I questioned the instructions... and the ridiculous, well saw that too. Some base training, to which they approved engine out ops, I was asked to go-around with one at idle at 100'.... because 1 minute prior a jet had landed... go figure the resultant there
as the airliner pilots responded to a cockpit collision warning and shed altitude.
(see edit, but you know what I mean!)
Last edited by RAC/OPS; 10th Mar 2012 at 10:18. Reason: obviously chucking ballast would make them go up
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It's a big problem and not just in the military. We are just not getting the quality of candidate we used to. There was a pretty big resignation in Canberra the other day, whether it's connected with the review that's happening at the Training Academy (weasel, w@nk words for the training college) who knows?
What will be the result of the ATSB invetigation? I can guess....................
What will be the result of the ATSB invetigation? I can guess....................
Funny thing is when two professional Pilots are self separating in busy CTAFs this type of crap does not happen.
Suddenly put ATC in the middle and it complicates everything. Combine that with inexperience (like Darwin ATC) and it compounds. I had Darwin ATC once tell me that I should have the traffic in my 3oclock on TCAS (flying metro at time
)
I'm not saying CTAFs are perfect, far from it. However when you are talking direct to the other Pilot, you know what each other are doing.
When you put ATC in the middle, often you don't know about each other or what each other are doing.
Holes in the cheese indeed.
Suddenly put ATC in the middle and it complicates everything. Combine that with inexperience (like Darwin ATC) and it compounds. I had Darwin ATC once tell me that I should have the traffic in my 3oclock on TCAS (flying metro at time
) I'm not saying CTAFs are perfect, far from it. However when you are talking direct to the other Pilot, you know what each other are doing.
When you put ATC in the middle, often you don't know about each other or what each other are doing.
Holes in the cheese indeed.
Funny thing is when two professional Pilots are self separating in busy CTAFs this type of crap does not happen.
ahahahahahahhaahhaahahahahahah, ahahahahahahahahahahahahahah, ahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahah!
wait, wait........
ahahahahahahhaahhaahahahahahah, ahahahahahahahahahahahahahah, ahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahah!
ahahahahahahhaahhaahahahahahah, ahahahahahahahahahahahahahah, ahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahah!
ahahahahahahhaahhaahahahahahah, ahahahahahahahahahahahahahah, ahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahah!
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Funny thing is when two professional Pilots are self separating in busy CTAFs this type of crap does not happen.
Suddenly put ATC in the middle and it complicates everything. Combine that with inexperience (like Darwin ATC) and it compounds. I had Darwin ATC once tell me that I should have the traffic in my 3oclock on TCAS (flying metro at time )
I'm not saying CTAFs are perfect, far from it. However when you are talking direct to the other Pilot, you know what each other are doing.
When you put ATC in the middle, often you don't know about each other or what each other are doing.
Holes in the cheese indeed.
Suddenly put ATC in the middle and it complicates everything. Combine that with inexperience (like Darwin ATC) and it compounds. I had Darwin ATC once tell me that I should have the traffic in my 3oclock on TCAS (flying metro at time )
I'm not saying CTAFs are perfect, far from it. However when you are talking direct to the other Pilot, you know what each other are doing.
When you put ATC in the middle, often you don't know about each other or what each other are doing.
Holes in the cheese indeed.
Slightly off topic, I was under the unqualified belief that close or formation work had a leader with a transponder to avoid ATC doing just this?
I am 100% not laying blame, just under standing better.
Same, as a close formation getting a clearance, it is given to the leader only.
Oh I love the Thumbs Ups
I am 100% not laying blame, just under standing better.
Same, as a close formation getting a clearance, it is given to the leader only.
Oh I love the Thumbs Ups
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Well all the ATC'ers can jump up and down all they like but there is a real problem, it's obviously been documented and investigations commenced. Airlines, Pilots and the people who pay good money for this service deserve the level of safety that ATC is there for.
It's a little embarrassing at times to read some of these reports, what's more embarrassing are the weasel words that come from those who 'own' this problem.
The need for bums on seats and a training experiment gone horribly wrong has put ASA another 3 or 4 years (probably more) behind training requirements.
It's a little embarrassing at times to read some of these reports, what's more embarrassing are the weasel words that come from those who 'own' this problem.
The need for bums on seats and a training experiment gone horribly wrong has put ASA another 3 or 4 years (probably more) behind training requirements.
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This is a RAAF problem, always has been
Additionally, while not mentioned in the report, the Defence compromised separation recovery training was actually under development at the time of the incident in question. This has since been implemented, as it was always going to be, but it is unfortunate that this incident occurred in the interim. As anyone who has worked in training development would know there are often significant lead times involved with changing courses.
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With due respect.........bull****.......training planned but didn't happen, if the training was planned, a recognised need existed, when was it going to happen???
Yes lack of training, facilities etc, then don't blame individuals, blame the system, but again, don't duck the issue that there was a monumental stuff up, a task has taken on which you could not do safely, with the training/ facilities provided.
I guess this is what happens whwn you get good orators at all levels, politics, military etc, talk well, do stuff all.
WTF, what do you say to the families of a mid-air, more talk
In normal business you pay a fee ( airways charges), if you don't get what you pay for, or suffer loss, then the service provider is liable.
Yes lack of training, facilities etc, then don't blame individuals, blame the system, but again, don't duck the issue that there was a monumental stuff up, a task has taken on which you could not do safely, with the training/ facilities provided.
I guess this is what happens whwn you get good orators at all levels, politics, military etc, talk well, do stuff all.
WTF, what do you say to the families of a mid-air, more talk
In normal business you pay a fee ( airways charges), if you don't get what you pay for, or suffer loss, then the service provider is liable.
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Originally Posted by Delay Approved
As outlined in the report AsA did not provide compromised separation recovery training until they experienced their own separation breakdown approximately 12 months earlier.
Originally Posted by ATSB
In response, Airservices Australia, the civilian air traffic control provider involved in that incident, implemented a compromised separation recovery training module for its air traffic control groups