Gold Coast needs an ILS
You can bet that it will never happen. Modern RPT jets can be RNP APP approved easily, although at a cost to the individual airline. GC airport investing in an ILS will cost them. Easy to see which way this will go. The problem is the Gold Coast region is in dire need of the inbound tourist dollars to bail them out of the recession that exists there. Any airline in Asia looking at a new destination such as OOL will have a look at the facilties and ask, "How much will it cost us for a diversion (or incident) as our crews can only use the VOR approach". With Ozs high cost of even breathing the air, they will move to the next project. Witness Air Asia's recent performance.
Modern RPT jets can be RNP APP approved easily, although at a cost to the individual airline. GC airport investing in an ILS will cost them.
After the recent shenanigans, it's pretty obvious the evidence is now overwhelming for some sort of precision approach, and GC certainly wouldn't be putting in an ILS gratis. They'd up the landing fees. But why's that different with any other piece of infrastructure? Service providers the economy-over upgrade equipment/services and then charge for it.
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Any ILS lovers work out how long the LDA will be for the GS displaced threshold to cater for the hill to the North?
RNP can do a curved approach at greater than 3degrees.
RNP can do a curved approach at greater than 3degrees.
An ILS can also have greater than 3 gp. And there will probably not be a reduction in LDA for a standard ILS installation. The ils installation generally doesn't affect runway length. The hill will only affect da. If the hill doesn't impact on the current OLS, there shouldn't be a displaced thld.
At least on the current figures currently being kicked around.
At least on the current figures currently being kicked around.
Originally Posted by Tankengine
Any ILS lovers work out how long the LDA will be for the GS displaced threshold to cater for the hill to the North?
Bloggs; "So you've done a cost-benefit analysis on say a half a dozen airlines individually getting RNP-AR approvals".
No, I havn't, and you know that-so what is your point?
What I am saying is I don't believe it will happen because the airport would ideally like to pass the technology/infrastucture over to the airlines to save them money. As far as "the smaller operators that don't have a hope of ever attaining RNP-AR capability" go, I am sure they couldn't care less about them. Landing fees and revenue in the pax terminal (primarily the latter) are what counts. (A aircraft that holds ten or so is not high on the list for improving infrastucture/safety for the bean counters at GCAPL). It makes sense for domestic airlines to be RNP APP approved (not just for OOL)- GCAPL knows that.
What I was saying however, is that it will be a shame if they don't install one, as it will deter potential new international airlines. International airline execs don't want/need the hassle of sending their shiny new Boeingbus to a regional, infrastucture deficient airport in Australia only to have it divert because someone forgot/chose to not install an ILS there. The Gold Coast city/region doesn't need that-it will hurt the economy.
My bet is that it they won't install an ILS. I just hope they install some HIALS to lower the visibility minima. That in conjunction with RNP approaches will be a massive improvement. No use being at 250 feet in driving rain or scud if you can't see some really bright approach lights as well as the recently installed "high-intensity runway lighting that allows pilots to see the runway from great distances, even during bad weather."
NB. I acknowledge it will be impossible to install HIALS on 14 due to current land use but maybe they could buy some land off farmer Joe for the 32 end. His cows could still eat grass around the posts.
Oh and here is a cynical thought. On the day I was stuck in that terminal for hours due to diversions there were thousands of people in the terminal. About threefold the usual number- all spending at the retail and food outlets. Did GCAPL total revenue go down that day because there were less aircraft movements? Not so sure.
No, I havn't, and you know that-so what is your point?
What I am saying is I don't believe it will happen because the airport would ideally like to pass the technology/infrastucture over to the airlines to save them money. As far as "the smaller operators that don't have a hope of ever attaining RNP-AR capability" go, I am sure they couldn't care less about them. Landing fees and revenue in the pax terminal (primarily the latter) are what counts. (A aircraft that holds ten or so is not high on the list for improving infrastucture/safety for the bean counters at GCAPL). It makes sense for domestic airlines to be RNP APP approved (not just for OOL)- GCAPL knows that.
What I was saying however, is that it will be a shame if they don't install one, as it will deter potential new international airlines. International airline execs don't want/need the hassle of sending their shiny new Boeingbus to a regional, infrastucture deficient airport in Australia only to have it divert because someone forgot/chose to not install an ILS there. The Gold Coast city/region doesn't need that-it will hurt the economy.
My bet is that it they won't install an ILS. I just hope they install some HIALS to lower the visibility minima. That in conjunction with RNP approaches will be a massive improvement. No use being at 250 feet in driving rain or scud if you can't see some really bright approach lights as well as the recently installed "high-intensity runway lighting that allows pilots to see the runway from great distances, even during bad weather."
NB. I acknowledge it will be impossible to install HIALS on 14 due to current land use but maybe they could buy some land off farmer Joe for the 32 end. His cows could still eat grass around the posts.
Oh and here is a cynical thought. On the day I was stuck in that terminal for hours due to diversions there were thousands of people in the terminal. About threefold the usual number- all spending at the retail and food outlets. Did GCAPL total revenue go down that day because there were less aircraft movements? Not so sure.
Let me see,
Qantas = RNP AR cleared to .10 for the B737 NG, possibly for the B767 and .1 for the B787
Jet star = RNP AR cleared to .30 but shortly to .10 if not already on the A320. B787 will be .10
Air NZ = RNP AR .10 for the A320, .11 for the B737 CL, B777 on the way from .30 down to .10, B787 .10 out of the box.
Virgin = not RNP AR yet but will have initial flights underway by the end of the year on the B737 NG, not sure of the capability of the E190.
Those four carriers are responsible for what 95% of all GC jet operations? I doubt that they will be willing to pay for an installation they they don't need. When the airport company come cap in hand to those airline for the cash to pay for the new ILS I would be willing to bet they will tell them to find the money from someone else!
Qantas = RNP AR cleared to .10 for the B737 NG, possibly for the B767 and .1 for the B787
Jet star = RNP AR cleared to .30 but shortly to .10 if not already on the A320. B787 will be .10
Air NZ = RNP AR .10 for the A320, .11 for the B737 CL, B777 on the way from .30 down to .10, B787 .10 out of the box.
Virgin = not RNP AR yet but will have initial flights underway by the end of the year on the B737 NG, not sure of the capability of the E190.
Those four carriers are responsible for what 95% of all GC jet operations? I doubt that they will be willing to pay for an installation they they don't need. When the airport company come cap in hand to those airline for the cash to pay for the new ILS I would be willing to bet they will tell them to find the money from someone else!
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MR, there aren't many "farms" on the 32 approach - it is built-up all the way from the coast. Not high-rise like the northern end, but densely populated residential areas nonetheless. Haven't seen cows in Banora Point for a long time.
C100driver, I understood it was GCAL that was pushing for the installation of an ILS? My guess it is mainly for the asian carriers, seeing as the domestic carriers are (or soon will be) RNP capable, as you pointed out. I also thought AA was paying for it - do they recoup the cost from the airlines? Sorry for all the questions, I'm just trying to work out how it all works.
C100driver, I understood it was GCAL that was pushing for the installation of an ILS? My guess it is mainly for the asian carriers, seeing as the domestic carriers are (or soon will be) RNP capable, as you pointed out. I also thought AA was paying for it - do they recoup the cost from the airlines? Sorry for all the questions, I'm just trying to work out how it all works.
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C100driver,
Big difference in being authorised to conduct RNP-AR and having crew/aircraft qualified/current to fly them.
Of the 4 airlines you listed:
QANTAS - don't currently fly to Gold Coast in aircraft that are RNP certified
VIRGIN - Not currently RNP certified.
That leaves....
Jetstar - Not currently flying RNP at Gold Coast (not sure why)
AirNZ - Maybe certified but don't have access to the Naverus plates paid for by QANTAS.
So that leaves one airline currently able to perform RNP at Gold Coast (Jetstar). I would think that a broader solution to cater for all of the other users of Gold Coast, and the significant GA fleet operating from there, is an ILS.
...and yes Gladstone is getting one
Big difference in being authorised to conduct RNP-AR and having crew/aircraft qualified/current to fly them.
Of the 4 airlines you listed:
QANTAS - don't currently fly to Gold Coast in aircraft that are RNP certified
VIRGIN - Not currently RNP certified.
That leaves....
Jetstar - Not currently flying RNP at Gold Coast (not sure why)
AirNZ - Maybe certified but don't have access to the Naverus plates paid for by QANTAS.
So that leaves one airline currently able to perform RNP at Gold Coast (Jetstar). I would think that a broader solution to cater for all of the other users of Gold Coast, and the significant GA fleet operating from there, is an ILS.
...and yes Gladstone is getting one
Originally Posted by Rostrum
Bloggs; "So you've done a cost-benefit analysis on say a half a dozen airlines individually getting RNP-AR approvals".
No, I havn't, and you know that-so what is your point?
No, I havn't, and you know that-so what is your point?
My point is: if you're (either GCAL or the airlines) going to potentially fork out a few mill for a piece of infrastructure/capability, then you do a study to find out what is the most cost-effective way of doing it; either RNP-ARs or an ILS.
)?
I must say it s&@ts me no end that we operate multi million dollar airliners with the traveling public into places where airport operators, councils, government refuse to spend the money to upgrade the infrastructure. Sunshine Coast, Ballina are two glaringly obvious places that expect the Jetstars & Virgins to service their communities, but haven't made their airports up to scratch.
Wishful thinking but if the CEO's (JB's & DH's) got together and issued an ultimatum to certain ports that if they haven't upgraded the facility, (runways, aprons, nav aids) by a certain date, they will withdraw from the port. The public uproar and tourism implications would be horrendous... But no, our airlines accept the diversions and expenses involved because of this.
And another thing. It's 2012 yet Hobart & the likes in this country are still procedural & non radar. What an effin joke. Rant over.
Wishful thinking but if the CEO's (JB's & DH's) got together and issued an ultimatum to certain ports that if they haven't upgraded the facility, (runways, aprons, nav aids) by a certain date, they will withdraw from the port. The public uproar and tourism implications would be horrendous... But no, our airlines accept the diversions and expenses involved because of this.
And another thing. It's 2012 yet Hobart & the likes in this country are still procedural & non radar. What an effin joke. Rant over.
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My understanding is that an ILS would not have made any difference as the issue was one of exceeding cross wind limitations on the wet runway. Although I agree, an ILS is definitely required.