MERGED: Alan Joyce and the room of mirrors
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Join Date: May 2004
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Another airline drops its LCC arm
While Qantas and Singapore Airlines launch into the sector, Kingfisher has released plans to phase out its no frills class of service.
With its full service airline, Kingfisher Class attracting higher yield and seat factors, the carrier said it will rearrange its aircraft to cater to growing demand, which will consequently lead to the termination of low-cost airline, Kingfisher Red.
With its full service airline, Kingfisher Class attracting higher yield and seat factors, the carrier said it will rearrange its aircraft to cater to growing demand, which will consequently lead to the termination of low-cost airline, Kingfisher Red.
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Shed Dog Tosser, I was one of those who were tossed off their aircraft on THAT day, by some little TAA grade one clerk in CBR. (had I known what was ahead I would have kicked the little bugger down the stairs, it would have been worth it). But had the rest of TAA walked with us (we never asked for that) it would have had probably a different ending. The point I was making is to replace Pilots, Engineers, Ground Staff, Ramp staff, cargo staff et al is almost impossible. The training would take time, and bringing in foreign pilots and engineers and getting them work visa's etc would bring on logistical nightmares, though of course there would still be the 
but probably not enough to keep the airline running. Add to that CASA requirements re foreign Pilots and Engineers would only add to the misery. Nope, you people are in the LH seat if led properly. I am not a union happy, lets go get em sort of bloke, but from where I am sitting you people are on the slow boat to nowhere with this bloke, and it would appear its going to be a JQ contract or nothing for many of you. How long do you seriously think management would hold out, with the govt. nagging behind, not long. I hope it never comes to that, but perhaps eventually the employees simply will have no choice, if they want to save this great company and their jobs.
but probably not enough to keep the airline running. Add to that CASA requirements re foreign Pilots and Engineers would only add to the misery. Nope, you people are in the LH seat if led properly. I am not a union happy, lets go get em sort of bloke, but from where I am sitting you people are on the slow boat to nowhere with this bloke, and it would appear its going to be a JQ contract or nothing for many of you. How long do you seriously think management would hold out, with the govt. nagging behind, not long. I hope it never comes to that, but perhaps eventually the employees simply will have no choice, if they want to save this great company and their jobs.
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Some interesting quotes from this Herald Sun Article, I wonder what the unions will have to say:
Joyce looks to the future with optimism | Herald Sun
Joyce looks to the future with optimism | Herald Sun
"The issue is not pay, the biggest issue is the efficiencies we get out of the pilots is only about 480 hours a year - that's interesting work," he notes.
Mr Joyce says if Qantas pilot salaries had to be paid to Jetstar Asia, where there's no shortage of applicants to be captains on $200,000 a year, it would make it uncompetitive, with no jobs for anyone.
He compares aircraft to cars, perhaps thinking of his own first car, a Datsun Cherry, which continually broke down unless he kept changing the oil, topping up the water and paying mechanics to fix it.
Now, cars are far more reliable, computerised to help mechanics. Mr Joyce argues modern aircraft are the same.
Now, cars are far more reliable, computerised to help mechanics. Mr Joyce argues modern aircraft are the same.
It argues the traditional "walk around" by a licensed engineer, a multi-point sight check on each aircraft after each flight, is no longer needed for at least half its fleet.
So, A380 Captains only do 480 hours a year. Is that the average including management and training Captains? Who would operate a fleet of aircraft as small as Qantas does remember the classic you had 4 of those. If you have enough aircraft and therefore frequency you get the hours from the pilots. In the days of 30 400s we were all doing 800/900 hours per year. We can do it Alan. Once again you try to shift the blame from the idiot management to the staff. Piss off before there is nothing left.
Join Date: Apr 2007
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What did he expect with a Datsun?
I don't see how the car analogy works, because modern cars are a lot more complicated to work on than the old beasts. My first car was an 80s model and I did most of the servicing myself. On the rare occasion that it needed a mechanic it got taken to a classic small garage which was pretty much three grease monkeys, a hoist, rattle gun and a toolkit.
On the other hand, I wouldn't touch a thing on my spoofy new car. Even if I knew where to start, the risk of stuffing up one of the high tech new systems is too great. It gets taken to a workshop that looks like something out of the space program where they plug in computers and all sorts of stuff.
As for not going wrong, everyone's got at least one war story about how the car computer wigged out and stalled the thing, or the fancy gearbox decided that second gear's the best option at 110 kmph, the de-ice engaged in the middle of summer, the air bag system chucked a tanty... the list goes on. And you can still get all the blown hoses and leaky stuff that the old bangers suffered with.
You can barely change a battery on a new car without risking the computer...so it has to go to a mechanic. Therefore, you need more service people, not fewer. Maybe the ALAEA should use the same analogy...
That said, neither Joyce nor the rest of the Qantas Board seem like FYI car types...
I don't see how the car analogy works, because modern cars are a lot more complicated to work on than the old beasts. My first car was an 80s model and I did most of the servicing myself. On the rare occasion that it needed a mechanic it got taken to a classic small garage which was pretty much three grease monkeys, a hoist, rattle gun and a toolkit.
On the other hand, I wouldn't touch a thing on my spoofy new car. Even if I knew where to start, the risk of stuffing up one of the high tech new systems is too great. It gets taken to a workshop that looks like something out of the space program where they plug in computers and all sorts of stuff.
As for not going wrong, everyone's got at least one war story about how the car computer wigged out and stalled the thing, or the fancy gearbox decided that second gear's the best option at 110 kmph, the de-ice engaged in the middle of summer, the air bag system chucked a tanty... the list goes on. And you can still get all the blown hoses and leaky stuff that the old bangers suffered with.
You can barely change a battery on a new car without risking the computer...so it has to go to a mechanic. Therefore, you need more service people, not fewer. Maybe the ALAEA should use the same analogy...
That said, neither Joyce nor the rest of the Qantas Board seem like FYI car types...
Join Date: May 2004
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This guy really is a knob!!!
The reason that a lot of QF guys are doing less than their 900 or 1000 hrs per year is because the routes flown have been cut in half and farmed off to other entities, for example.
1. 767 freighter work is now done by EFA
2. Trans Tasman flying is now done by Jetconnect
3. A great number (and i am sure someone has the exact figures) of routes have been cannibalized by Jetstar
QF has made the mainline pilots look inefficient because THEY have given the work to other entities.
I can't remember the last time i heard about a modern car carrying 455 passengers have an engine failure that removed a great number of systems requiring you to park it at 350kmh!
The reason that a lot of QF guys are doing less than their 900 or 1000 hrs per year is because the routes flown have been cut in half and farmed off to other entities, for example.
1. 767 freighter work is now done by EFA
2. Trans Tasman flying is now done by Jetconnect
3. A great number (and i am sure someone has the exact figures) of routes have been cannibalized by Jetstar
QF has made the mainline pilots look inefficient because THEY have given the work to other entities.
I can't remember the last time i heard about a modern car carrying 455 passengers have an engine failure that removed a great number of systems requiring you to park it at 350kmh!
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Yesterday afternoon we had the TV going from approx 6pm till approx 10pm. I`m guessing between 8-10 Jetstar ads. Qantas ads `0`.Wonder who`s paying for those ads. I am pleased to know that they`ve put ads in this mornings papers to apologize for this afternoons disruptions though. Not happy to hear QF are blaming part of $200 million International loss, is due to outdated work practices by the Unions, though.
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Are international engineering 'Union' work practices any different from domestic engineering 'Union' work practices? I thought they were pretty much the same, and domestic isn't going broke by a long shot.
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Joyce is worried about the traction that the unions, particularly AIPA have gained with the public so far.
To negate this they are attempting to create a diversion from the theme of "Qantas pilots for Qantas aircraft" to "Qantas unions are unproductive and overpaid".
The dodgy mathematics they use to suggest that A380 captains are paid more per hour than he is will stand because:
1. No journalist is fully briefed on the contract or the circumstances that have contributed to why the average A380 Capt probably is only flying 480 hours a year at the moment; and
2. AIPA must stay on message and not allow itself to be suckered in to making this into a pay dispute.
My advice is to let it go. Think of it as yet another example of Qantas managements cynicism and contempt towards it's employees and the public.
Turn the anger into resolve. These announcements are carefully timed. AIPA is finishing up the conciliation talks in FWA this week. My bet is that no progress has been made and shortly pilots will be asked to do more than wear colorful ties and make PA's.
Qantas knows this, hence the rhetoric directed at the employees currently making the least dent in the bottom line.
To negate this they are attempting to create a diversion from the theme of "Qantas pilots for Qantas aircraft" to "Qantas unions are unproductive and overpaid".
The dodgy mathematics they use to suggest that A380 captains are paid more per hour than he is will stand because:
1. No journalist is fully briefed on the contract or the circumstances that have contributed to why the average A380 Capt probably is only flying 480 hours a year at the moment; and
2. AIPA must stay on message and not allow itself to be suckered in to making this into a pay dispute.
My advice is to let it go. Think of it as yet another example of Qantas managements cynicism and contempt towards it's employees and the public.
Turn the anger into resolve. These announcements are carefully timed. AIPA is finishing up the conciliation talks in FWA this week. My bet is that no progress has been made and shortly pilots will be asked to do more than wear colorful ties and make PA's.
Qantas knows this, hence the rhetoric directed at the employees currently making the least dent in the bottom line.
Join Date: May 2008
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The Domestic operation won't go "broke" until they have finished with the International branch, then the bull#$&* will start all over again. And no such thing as an International and Domestic "union" arm, all united in a common cause, saving something for your kids to be proud of.
Nunc est bibendum
These latest tactics by Joyce et al regarding Qantas A380 pay rates, etc show the moral compass at Qantas and the liberties they take with the truth, spin, etc, in order to 'win'. It also serves to harden my resolve as I certainly gain a clearer insight into the immoral behaviour exhibited by those running the company. Whilst previously demonstrated behaviour over the last few years gave clear indications as to the manner in which they do business (freight cartels, APA bid, Jackson, Dixon, etc) this just clarifies and cements that nothing has changed at the top. They have no desire to create a win/ win situation through negotiation. They are only interested in win/ lose to their benefit.
In some respects, behaviour like AJ exhibits plays nicely into AIPA's hands. He is in fact ensuring that no pilot is unclear as to what Qantas will do to us if we let them. It is now impossible to be naive as to the lengths that Qantas will go to. It's united pilots more than I've ever previously seen.
In some respects, behaviour like AJ exhibits plays nicely into AIPA's hands. He is in fact ensuring that no pilot is unclear as to what Qantas will do to us if we let them. It is now impossible to be naive as to the lengths that Qantas will go to. It's united pilots more than I've ever previously seen.
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AJ & Co
Keg, you hit the nail on the head with your last post. It is us or them. We win, we save Qantas, we lose, they get rich and Qantas ceases to exist in a few short years. End of story....
And what's the hourly rate for AJ and LC spokespeople?
Qantas engineers cancel strike action | Airline Industrial Dispute
Olivia Wirth, Luke Enright, Justin Kelly.
Any others? Based on their airtime, I'd hate to imagine the "Joyce Hour Calculator" fee is per hour.
Good news though, it's all billed to Qantas. Just like Jetstar senior executive wages.
Qantas engineers cancel strike action | Airline Industrial Dispute
Olivia Wirth, Luke Enright, Justin Kelly.
Any others? Based on their airtime, I'd hate to imagine the "Joyce Hour Calculator" fee is per hour.
Good news though, it's all billed to Qantas. Just like Jetstar senior executive wages.
If the unions are colluding as per the Qantas spokesman and the advertisements then they are acting illegally. I believe that this is not the case so therefore i believe the unions involved should get legal advise re libel and put in a complaint to the media watchdog re incorrect/misleading advertising. The bullsh-t from this mob is unbelievable.
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dragon man
colluding? Like some kind of cartel? who'd do that?
You are correct. Who would do that Qantas!!! I wonder if they could be fined yet again. Would make my Xmas and top off 2011 nicely.
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Shared a beer last night with a AN bloke (pilot) and his brother. The brother was a executive with AN, and what he told me last night about Joyce, well, it all figures. In AN he was simply a numbers man, a lCC man from GB, but with limited ability, and gave no indication he had the ability to run the national carrier. Well no surprises there. This bloke was astonished that Dixon gave him any creed at all, and wonders WTF Dixon was thinking. He had a totally different opinion about Borgetti, and whilst stating the bloke could be a little , he really knows his stuff, and would have had QF humming along by now. This of course adds to the frustration, and listening to this bloke, and his story about AN and the what the ar#eho%#s did to it, including Joyce, it made me feel more than uneasy. This fella is now working with CX, and could not be happier, with the way the airline is going and the CEO he works under. Very interesting to hear from a bloke that was right up there, his despair about AN and what he would and could do with QF. The one good thing he did say is don't give up, there are others circling, good men who know their stuff, and as he said, leading QF is one of the best CEO jobs in the country, and one of the most prestigious, he gives Joyce three months at the most. Lets hope he is right.
, he really knows his stuff, and would have had QF humming along by now. This of course adds to the frustration, and listening to this bloke, and his story about AN and the what the ar#eho%#s did to it, including Joyce, it made me feel more than uneasy. This fella is now working with CX, and could not be happier, with the way the airline is going and the CEO he works under. Very interesting to hear from a bloke that was right up there, his despair about AN and what he would and could do with QF. The one good thing he did say is don't give up, there are others circling, good men who know their stuff, and as he said, leading QF is one of the best CEO jobs in the country, and one of the most prestigious, he gives Joyce three months at the most. Lets hope he is right.