Passengers in charge of overwing exits.
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sixtiescommonsense......
Management is a seperate industry. Stay for the contract then bugger off to greener pastures while the faithful employee remains for their working life.
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60'sRelic, I hear what you say, agree with some aspects of it. The system has changed, the passengers have changed (a wider cross section of the community) we are all just trying to deal with it as best we can. Someone else said it - the o/w seats are sold at a premium these days. The F/A's can move people but it is a judgement call on their behalf. As with any operation there are good people and not so good people. Those of us working on the line are dealing with a whole heap more crap than you older blokes ever did and doing longer days than you ever did. I dont think the things that are happening are good or right by the way. So whilst I agree with some of your comments what are we to do about it if we wish to stay in the industry? As far as Tech crew standards go however I wonder how you form your opinions. I wouldn't have felt to safe on the Garuda 737 into Yogyakarta even if there were 6 f/a's and one in the overwing.
Last edited by kimir; 10th Aug 2011 at 12:21.
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assumptions
So, do we know for sure that these mysterious damsels of the exit row were poorly placed, and not;
Flight Attendants
Pilots
Engineers
Air Marshals
Police
Military
Tiquando Instructors
Ultimate Cage Fighting Champions
Each generation is convinced that they were better than the next.
Flight Attendants
Pilots
Engineers
Air Marshals
Police
Military
Tiquando Instructors
Ultimate Cage Fighting Champions
Each generation is convinced that they were better than the next.
Who cares what they were but by the description it was a reasonable assumption that they were under the influence of something by their conduct and they would have been a problem during an evacuation. As I have said before this concept of pax assisting during an evacuation is an untried one so it has nothing to do with generational finger pointing. I have witnessed the problems that occur when pax want the legroom but do not want the responsibility.
As I have said before this concept of pax assisting during an evacuation is an untried one so it has nothing to do with generational finger pointing.
there were reports of cabin crew unable to operate doors due to the deck angle and their diminutive size and strength, amongst other things...
Steven Courtney and John D. Wiggans, survivors of the crash, stated in a USA Today article that the staff were unable to help the passengers escape from the aircraft due to being frozen by fear and/or due to lack of competence in emergency procedures; Wiggans was seated in the upper deck business class area
If you travel on a ferry, say Sydney harbour or even down to Tasmania, and the ship starts to go down, who will help you get out? Incidentally the local ferries do not even know who is on board, only total number.
If you are in a crowded cinema and it starts to burn who will get you out?
I ask these questions to play devils advocate and as these are questions I hear from the general public (friends at dinner etc) about why aviation is so different to other forms of mass transport.
As a pilot I take responsibility for getting myself out of a burning aircraft when I am paxing. I certainly do not rely on a twenty year old who has completed about three to five days of EPs training during their cabin crew groundschool.
Well Mr Beelzubub you must've been down to Georgia and been talking to the locals. As far as I am aware other modes of transport are not mandated to demonstrate an evacuation within a specific time period as aircraft are. On the ferry and on other water craft it is always stated that the crew will be assisting in any evacuation. Passengers are not required to look after themselves other than being familiar with the escape routes. They are not told to put a life jacket on and throw themselves over the side. So requiring passengers to operate emergency equipment on an aircraft is abrogating responsibility and I will state again that it is an unproven procedure. The example you give in the SQ incident suggests that the pax were still looking to the F/As for guidance and direction. It also highlights that the training should be more rigorous because the F/A is still responsible. I agree with you about not relying on a 20 yo to get you off but unfortunately airlines are only interested in churning through F/As and not considering experience to be of value.
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Fat
My view is that if people who are disabled are placed in the exit rows they are a hazard as they can potentially block the exit. By disabled I mean obese drunk or otherwise compromised. Able bodied people should be in the exit row so that at the very least they can clear the area and at the best can actively help others to get out.
I think the problem has little to do with airline staff and much to do with the booking process - and a worrying thought as noted previously an extra $20 for the airline - that is a lot of muffin tops in the exit rows!
I think the problem has little to do with airline staff and much to do with the booking process - and a worrying thought as noted previously an extra $20 for the airline - that is a lot of muffin tops in the exit rows!
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Funny thread
by the description it was a reasonable assumption that they were under the influence of something by their conduct
You're basing your argument on what someone else saw and then posted their interpretation of what they saw on an anonymous bulletin board?
Impressive
much better to have someone there than not
The chances of a person being incapacitated, by virtue of sitting in that row are not reduced. The seats have same crashworthiness as the rest of economy and they are not fitted with four point harnesses.
I'd prefer to see the exit row empty with no seat row, because it would allow those that do survive the hard landing a clearer run once they get to the exit.
If they are meant to be emergency exits why do we block it with +200kgs of flammable fatty tissue?
Mickjoebill
I’ve always thought it would be a good thing if the airlines could run a real basic EP/famil for interested pax occasionally, to experience such things as how easy/difficult it is to open a OWE hatch, where to stow it and other useful such stuff. They are, after all being expected to perhaps sometime perform a serious function for the airline, and an emergency situation is not the best time to first experience something.
On completion of the famil an individual could be given an “endorsement” of sort to be reflected in their airline club membership profile, which could give them seating priority in the exit rows.
I’d rather have someone there who has a bit of familiarity with what's required .....
On completion of the famil an individual could be given an “endorsement” of sort to be reflected in their airline club membership profile, which could give them seating priority in the exit rows.
I’d rather have someone there who has a bit of familiarity with what's required .....
Personally I find it appalling that you can pay for the exit row, then as you paid the trolley dollies can be reluctant to remove you.
ABAs should be selected on checkin, or if it's automated, should ask a series of questions before "it" issues a boarding pass.
I'm surprised CASA has not cracked down on the practice as of yet.
I suppose there is only so many muffins the airlines can sell these days hey!
ABAs should be selected on checkin, or if it's automated, should ask a series of questions before "it" issues a boarding pass.
I'm surprised CASA has not cracked down on the practice as of yet.
I suppose there is only so many muffins the airlines can sell these days hey!
Can someone remind me again why I had to be certified on the overwing exits on the 767?
Maybe its because I have a 1-in-a-brazilian chance of sitting there when I commute because the bloke who paid for that seat was a no-show.
Maybe its because I have a 1-in-a-brazilian chance of sitting there when I commute because the bloke who paid for that seat was a no-show.
Thread Starter
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C441! Boxes MUST be ticked!
If we don't take that seriously, why the tickers would be out of a job and then there's the government department in charge of thinking up more pages of boxes to be ticked that could go under. Think of the unemployment!
Friend of mine ... one of the poor buggers who has to get out of his jet after doing a charter and go through security with his bags before returning to the very same aeroplane to do a RPT flight next… got nobbled to do the required on line risk assessment course. He pointed out the stupidity of having to waste his time sitting in front of a computer and then completing the exam when his whole day at work is assessing risks and deciding on fuel loads, holding, alternates and all the other decisions a pilot makes as part of the job. Clerk couldn’t see what he was on about. He was required to do the course for his self improvement and he’d DO IT!
Another friend told me that the day everyone on the tarmac HAD to wear a high viz vest from now on or else! … a prettily attired pilot was wacked by a tug. So much for fluoro clothing reducing accidents.
Long live the do gooders.
If we don't take that seriously, why the tickers would be out of a job and then there's the government department in charge of thinking up more pages of boxes to be ticked that could go under. Think of the unemployment!
Friend of mine ... one of the poor buggers who has to get out of his jet after doing a charter and go through security with his bags before returning to the very same aeroplane to do a RPT flight next… got nobbled to do the required on line risk assessment course. He pointed out the stupidity of having to waste his time sitting in front of a computer and then completing the exam when his whole day at work is assessing risks and deciding on fuel loads, holding, alternates and all the other decisions a pilot makes as part of the job. Clerk couldn’t see what he was on about. He was required to do the course for his self improvement and he’d DO IT!
Another friend told me that the day everyone on the tarmac HAD to wear a high viz vest from now on or else! … a prettily attired pilot was wacked by a tug. So much for fluoro clothing reducing accidents.
Long live the do gooders.
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On Monday 8th August I flew BMI baby EDI-EMA as you have to pay extra for the emergency exits so they are rarely filled, after doors closed one of the PAX (not me) moved into an empty O/W exit seat only to be told by a FA that he had to get back to his alocated seat because as he had to pay extra for the seat it would be the same as if he had been moving to first class
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I believe I read the other day that one of the concerns CASA has with Tiger is that the auto check-in allows unsuitable people to be placed in exit rows. My question is; why are they just concerned about Tiger and not everyone else?
BSB
BSB
If no one has paid the extra fee to sit there, the gate agents and/or cabin crew will look at the manifest and "upgrade" frequent fliers, tall people, whatever, to make sure these seats are filled.
As I understand it if one feels "unable or unwilling" to operate emergency exit then they "must inform cabin staff".
So if the entire cabin wanted to screw the crew of a particular flight (lets say they have pushed back and are sitting on the ground for 2 hours in high temperatures) they could organise themselves (!) and refuse to sit in an exit row.
Aircraft would be forced to return to gate with zero consequences for passengers?
Mickjoebill
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I believe I read the other day that one of the concerns CASA has with Tiger is that the auto check-in allows unsuitable people to be placed in exit rows. My question is; why are they just concerned about Tiger and not everyone else?
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Just to let you know Virgin puts its paxing crew in the exit rows.
Obviously they are the best people on the aircraft as passengers to be in the exit row.
Also Virgin do not allow online, mobile or kiosk check-in to exit rows. All guests that have booked the exit row are checked and asked the required question on whether they are fit and willing and it also allows the agent at check in to look at them and ensure there are no issues (eg. broken arm/leg, requiring oxygen during flight, non-English speaker etc etc etc).
I have kicked many people out of the exit row, especially on landing after we find they have had a whole litre of duty free alcohol during the flight. Don't care if people pay for it, they need to be with it and able to operate the exit. For those interested in a prepared evacuation all occupants of the exit row are re-briefed and it is checked each of them are still willing to sit there and operate the exit if required.
Obviously they are the best people on the aircraft as passengers to be in the exit row.
Also Virgin do not allow online, mobile or kiosk check-in to exit rows. All guests that have booked the exit row are checked and asked the required question on whether they are fit and willing and it also allows the agent at check in to look at them and ensure there are no issues (eg. broken arm/leg, requiring oxygen during flight, non-English speaker etc etc etc).
I have kicked many people out of the exit row, especially on landing after we find they have had a whole litre of duty free alcohol during the flight. Don't care if people pay for it, they need to be with it and able to operate the exit. For those interested in a prepared evacuation all occupants of the exit row are re-briefed and it is checked each of them are still willing to sit there and operate the exit if required.