Fallacy or Fact - Qantas International losses

[packrat]

Fed Sec~ Thank You

Thank you for the clarification.
I guess the only hope is that a large shareholder defects

[UnderneathTheRadar]

FF points

Except this LCC's 'Business' class passenger have access to the Qantas Club. This LCC competes directly, landing at the same airport, using the same terminals as Qantas.

I think I raised this elsewhere but I would bet anything you like that:

- JS pays nothing for FF points given on boganstarclass or the exyflexi tickets
- any redemption of FF points onto JS flights requires QF to pay the full fare ticket price to JS for the privlige.

Given that QF business travellers often use their points for 'leisure' destinations then this would be a massive cost to QF and income to JS. In the last few months I've spent over 150,000 QF flight earned points to go to Bali and MCY with the family where i'm forced to use JS.

UTR

[Animalclub]

BRUCE BUCHANAN: I think that's completely false. And you know their ownership through the relationship with HTT is part of the wholesale structure that they use to provide a land content for the business.

And Tour East business has expanded into some of these other areas. It's not part of the Qantas Group and Qantas Group has a minority interest in that business.

BARBARA MILLER: Thirty seven per cent's quite a large stake.

BRUCE BUCHANAN: It's still a minority interest. They can't call the shots in that business.

Way back in my TAA days TAA had a subsidiary AAT with Ken Grenda as Chairman. It had two General Managers (one Englishman and an American). The company eventually went out of business... even Ken resigned before it happened as no doubt he saw the writing on the wall.

This same American turned up as General Manager of Tour East in Asia (there were several companies based in different countries). This group of companies offered (sold) ground arrangements in their respective country and were controlled by Australian owners so is it true that just 37% is contolled by an Australian entity?

Is Tour East still operating in other Asian contries? Doing what?

Who or what is HTT?

[bgspilot]

Has anyone ever heard of Four Corners or 60 Minutes?

[The Green Goblin]

Has anyone ever heard of Four Corners or 60 Minutes?

Yep...

Four corners is funded by the ABC.

The ABC is funded by the government.

How much money does 'the group' contribute to political re/elections? How much do lobbyists wine and dine our elected officials? What is the chairman's lounge membership worth these days?

60 mins?

Channel 9.

How much does 'the group' spend with channel 9 in advertising? I'm sure channel 7 would love all that revenue if channel 9 don't tow the line.

It's a lucky country we live in isn't it?

[Budfox]

V-Jet

"Blue Horseshoe LOVES Jet/Bluestar airlines"

Except in this case its HATES instead of LOVES

Be safe. Hope you arent affected in your job post 24th Aug.

Just on a final note. Mrs Fox who works for a fairly largish US medical company are reviewing their corporate account with Qantas as they too are becoming disgruntled. They only use Qantas, not Jetstar. They want the most safest airline with the best track record cause they have many valuable and worthy employees.
Her direct boss always goes first class everywhere so money is not even a factor. Interesting times ahead.

[AlphaLord]

Lies,Damned Lies and Qantas

This from Letters in The Fin Review:
"The cost base comparison(quoted fromMerrill Lynch estimates)between Emirates and Qantas are grossly inaccurate.The net underlying costs in the audited annual reports for both airlines indicates a differential of 1.12 cents per available seat kilometre or 25%,not 228% as reported.It does not account for significant differences in network and fleet structure which flow through o demand for labour and shaping an airline's cost base.
Our 39000 staff are competitively remunerated.
Emirates incurs significant socialcosts to retain the high proportion of staff recruited on expatriate terms and conditions.On average every year,Emirates has to bear a total cost of more than $US500 million for expatriate employee benefits-including accommodation for employees and children's education for management,pilots,engineers and other staff--costs Qantas do not incur"
Andrew Parker
Emirates Airline.Dubai UAE

[Quill Shaft]

Xenophon bill would outlaw foreign cabin crews on domestic Australian flights

July 29, 2011 – 7:54 pm, by Ben Sandilands

Senator Nick Xenophon says he will seek to introduce a private member’s bill that would prevent airlines using foreign based cabin crews on domestic flights in Australia.

The bill follows the ABC TV Lateline program on Wednesday which showed that Jetstar was working Thai based cabin crew provided by Tour East Thailand (which is 37% owned by Qantas) on 20 hour shifts to provide it with cut price labor on domestic flights.

If it becomes law such a bill would frustrate a substantial plank of the Qantas plan to use lower priced regionally based foreign Qantas controlled carriers to reduce its exposure to its obligations to Australian taxation, superannuation and labor laws.

This is the media release:

Independent Senator for South Australia Nick Xenophon will introduce a Private Senator’s Bill that will force Australian airlines to provide the same flight and duty conditions for foreign crews as are currently given to Australian crews.

The move follows revelations that Jetstar’s Bangkok-based foreign crews regularly work on flights that travel from one Australian location to another, and that most passengers would believe are domestic flights.

Under their contracts, these crews also have no limit on the hours they could be expected to fly, and say they are regularly fatigued to a level that they believe puts passenger safety at risk.

“I don’t think a lot of people realise that the crew member on their flight from Brisbane to Cairns may actually be based in Bangkok, earning a base pay of less than $300 a month, and that they may have worked hours that Australian crews would not be allowed to,” Nick said.

The Bill would require Australian airlines to offer foreign-based crews the same flight and duty time limitations that are offered to Australian crews under their industrial agreements.
The Bill would also apply to international airlines in which an Australian airline owns more than a 20% stake.

“This is a basic issue of fairness and safety,” Nick said. “We shouldn’t have an underclass of cabin crews flying around Australia on Australian carriers.”

“In the event of an emergency, I believe passengers have a right to expect that their cabin crews are going to be alert enough to get the door open and the passengers out,” Nick said.
Senator Xenophon has also said he will take up the issue of the low wages foreign crew are paid while employed by Australian airlines.

“It’s not good enough for Jetstar to say that a base wage of $300 a month is good by Bangkok standards,” Nick said. “These workers are employed by an Australian airline, they are flying in Australia, and they deserve better.”

While the bill will be immediately associated with Asia based cabin crews, it would also prevent the use of crews based in the nearer Pacific island states, PNG and New Zealand, from which Qantas already operates a supposedly fully independent trans Tasman carrier that uses NZ pilots and cabin attendants in NZ registered jets which are falsely labelled as Qantas The Spirit of Australia.

Senator Xenophon was the instigator of the recent Senate inquiry into pilot training and airline safety standards, which while it was taking testimony and submissions, is widely credited with derailing a sham NZ based cadet pilot scheme in which Jetstar was taking the participants to NZ for the purpose of opening NZ bank accounts and signing contracts in which they would be paid as NZ employees, even though it did not bring the cadets up to a standard which qualified them to fly an airliner in NZ.

: Finally, maybe some common sense

[1a sound asleep]

Fine, just ad FLIGHT CREW to the bill whilst you are there

[Condition 1]

Sorry.bit late I know; but who pays for J* to use the QF Poco , eg Qantas Perth?

[Long Bay Mauler]

Why is Jetstar rountinely given access to aerobridges in ports such as Perth, over mainline aircraft that arrive and and must deplane the pax into the inclement weather on outlying bays with no bridge access?

[AtALoss]

Who sees this stuff......

Just spent over an hour reading through this post.
Many interesting points "put to paper".
But.... let's get real, who of any clout reads this?
Great way for people affected to vent, but I cannot see any advantage or possible change in the situation from all this.
Prove me wrong. I would love the people who caused all the trouble to be punished, expelled or even jailed.
Use this space as a squawk box, but don't get you hopes set too high.
Written with love.

[dragon man]

Jetstar flight into Kansai last night had faulty fire warning in cargo hold. Aircraft on the ground Air France engineers either wont or cant fix it. Qantas to rescue the passengers but who will foot the bill!!! The sixty four thousand dollar question?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Many interesting points "put to paper".
But.... let's get real, who of any clout reads this?

It depends what clout is. I am collecting all these concerns to put them to Qantas in a forum where they will be obliged to answer the questions. It doesn't mean they have to change but it may prevent them running a line against the unions the we "must change to survive".

[Handbrake]

Ataloss, fair comment. Would you have predicted the Murdoch's downfall? The leaky boat got them.

Spotted this on Ben Sandilands today.

David Klein
Posted July 30, 2011 at 2:47 pm | Permalink
There is a very fine line between tax minimization and tax avoidance and since numerous times I’ve observed data plates attached to the entry door frame of QF early series A330-200’s in Toulouse showing ownership as a leasing company in the Cayman Islands I’ve always felt the latter applies to the tax dodging Spirit of Australia.

[Condition 1]

Originally Posted by ALAEA Fed Sec

I am collecting all these concerns to put them to Qantas in a forum where they will be obliged to answer the questions. It doesn't mean they have to change but it may prevent them running a line against the unions the we "must change to survive".

Great work ALAEA Fed Sec.

What are chances of ASIC, or some group of that calibre, conducting investigation after these questions are tabled?

I fear we may have limited victory unless CEOs go (both QF and J*) and there's a full change of direction of the Board Perhaps criminal charges could help.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I must admit that I don't know much about ASIC and how they could intervene. If anyone has got a handle on it, please act soon. Too late once the house is torn down.

[QAN_Shareholder]

Condition 1,

What are chances of ASIC, or some group of that calibre, conducting investigation after these questions are tabled?

I think you have been given false hope, in my view it is highly improbable. ASIC have a tough enough job getting traction in the most blatant cases. With Fortescue it was an open and shut case but it took over 5 years and they lost at the first attempt but managed to get it overturned on appeal. With Qantas there is a whole heap of allegations from people with an axe to grind but as far as I can see no proof of anything. Also is there a precedent for ASIC taking action for showing incorrect segmental profits and has any investor ended up worse off as a result? In reality there are plenty of instances in financial markets of genuine abuse which are far worse than any of the allegations raised here, I just can't see ASIC having any interest.

[7378FE]

Reffering to the thread title "Fallacy or Fact - Qantas International losses"

It is probably fact that QANTAS international is in the red.

The reasons are many, wrong route structure, wrong airplanes (no 777) competition etc.

Many people here question how Jetstar is going from stength to strength?

Why don't these same people ask which of these QANTAS group companies are helping out QF international?

QantasLink
Q Catering
QANTAS Freight
Express Ground Handling
Qantas Holidays
Qantas Defence Systems.....etc.

After all, revenue is derived from all the QANTAS group companies to the QANTAS group, It is then up to the QANTAS group to decide how to spend the money it has.

The shareholder has shares in the QANTAS group, not just QANTAS airlines, If the shareholders are convinced by the board that they would be better off with a slimmed down QANTAS international operation, then that is what they will vote for.

[600ft-lb]

The cull has been underway since 2005, I can see it rapidly increasing from here though.
The Qantas Group, has similar employee numbers as 2002.
2002 = 187 aircraft
2011 = 279 aircraft
A 50% increase in aircraft for the same numbers of staff.

Although Qantas mainline only operates 140 aircraft today.
B734's will be phased out by 2013. -17 aircraft
744's are slowly going from 2013. -20 aircraft
763's are slowly going from now. -25 aircraft

A332's 2 orders to come. And 1 day 11 back from Jetstar. +13
A333's 0 orders to come. +0
A380's 10 orders to come. +10
B738's 18 orders to come. +18
B787's - They aren't coming to Qantas.

Do the math, the future isn't bright if you're a Qantas employee. It's a stagnant policy, there is no growth planned for Qantas based off the numbers.



The sad thing is, the operating profit would be an extra $100+ million in 2009 if the war wasn't waged on the LAME's. I wonder if the scab strikebreaker money is tacked on to the wages bill ?

Seems the 2007 and 2009 Annual reports tell a different story in regards to attrition as well. Qantas attrition levels are revised downwards substantially in the case of engineering and Jetstars were revised up.

None the less Jetstar's attrition rate is very high, double digits consistently.
As per 2007 Annual Report

As per 2009 Annual Report