John Holland to start maintenance for QF

[Bellcrank 74]

As far as i was aware JHAS is an MRO... If Q decide to give them work it would be just another tail in the shed for them along with their various other customers..... Unless you see these Jhas guys on the Q ramp its hardly scab labour...

[listentome]

Theirs will be the one that pays them $4000 per week.

Actually, $3000 per week. JHAS standard casual rate is $75ph.

JHAS is not treating this as strike breaking at all. In fact they initially pushed back and have since pushed back on many requests from QF as it would be seen as crossing the line. There is no way JHAS would place any of their staff in a compromising position, many of which are ALAEA members, why would they?

The only thing that has been "talked about" is some overflow A-Checks if things get to the point as they did last time. After the dust was settled there was a stack of piled up maintenance that needed catching up on. Is that what QF members want, to work their rings off catching up when its all signed and sealed?

The only thing that is going on is some training, there is still no agreement or agreed start date, if at all.

[Romulus]

This is where QF cocked up. JHAS should have been given, at well negotiated rates from QF's perspective, enough work to provide cover for the current situation. In the same way I have mentioned Paul Keating and interest rates elsewhere QF needed to put their stake in the ground and outsource some significant work to a local competitor, makes it very hard for you to then attack them as foreign maintenance. Short term pain for a much much bigger long term gain.

Overflow work and some not so overflow work could and should have been used to make it very clear they have alternatives. It wasn't. Erwin Rommel put it best when he said "An army of rabbits led by a lion is far better than an army of lions led by a rabbit". There are many parallels with your current situation.

The A380 contract could have been used as a very very clear warning shot regarding the 787, but QF didn't so now they must pay the price of timidity.

So be it, they had an opportunity to fashion a very strong weapon to use right about now, no strikebreaking or anything, but they didn't. More fool them, they just locked themselves into a disadvantageous position and now they're scrambling to recover.

[unionist1974]

And ROMULOUS , perhaps you could tell us why , QF did not take up such a good offer from JHAS. After all QF managmentt will do anything to shaft their "workers"

[Jethro Gibbs]

Qantas have outsourced significant work to Forstaff with help from ALAEA

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by U1974

And ROMULOUS , perhaps you could tell us why , QF did not take up such a good offer from JHAS. After all QF managmentt will do anything to shaft their "workers"

Offer was not good enough to overcome perceived risk margin, simple as that.

Much as the current problems do not come down to LAME pay scales and conditions, they come down to needing a fundamental shift in mindset which appears beyond a large number of people to understand.

The question is not what is costs (driven largely by staffing costs) but by what value is derived. If it costs an extra $500K to do a bigger check then somewhere there needs to be a justification in the order of $500K to keep it on shore or in house. If a plane costs $100K a day in terms of cost and lost profit and getting it back a day early means it can recover that cost and lost profit then the deal should not be chiselling guys entitlement, it should be figuring out how to save 6 days and thus $600K so that everyone wins.

As usual you need to insert real figures but that's the bare bones of teh business case.

[600ft-lb]

Much as the current problems do not come down to LAME pay scales and conditions, they come down to needing a fundamental shift in mindset which appears beyond a large number of people to understand.

I think you have it wrong there. The main issue people have is around their job security, most people would like to be somewhat certain that they won't be made redundant a few months into the new EBA. Even if that is their master plan, they haven't actually said anything, just cryptic messages from the ivory tower on change or death, no specifics, no outline of their future model, just dribble.

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by 600ft-lb

I think you have it wrong there. The main issue people have is around their job security, most people would like to be somewhat certain that they won't be made redundant a few months into the new EBA. Even if that is their master plan, they haven't actually said anything, just cryptic messages from the ivory tower on change or death, no specifics, no outline of their future model, just dribble

Apologies, I was meaning this lack of understanding is from the bean counter driven management handbook. They always look at direct costs and wonder why things f*** up overall when the answer is pretty clear - it's the non direct costs that are the killers, that's why people are employed in the first place. If I employ you for $50 then I need to be looking at earning $100 from what you do so we both win. Problem comes when a spreadsheet shows I get the same simplistic level outcome (one D check please) for a lower direct cost. Getting in to what goes on behind the scenes is far harder and, in my opinion, is a very rare skillset for accountants to possess. Not their fault, they're not trained for it. But those who put them in power should remember that and make sure these deficiencies are compensated for in other ways.

[another superlame]

In hindsight it has worked out better that QF kept the 380 inhouse. I doubt the JHAS contract would cover the extra running around that is required to organise the logistics of maintaining the aircraft.

Also JHAS would have quoted on things like A checks as taking the 100 or so hours that airbus say it takes. But in reality it takes quite a bit more than what airbus reckined, so when the costs of extra manhours and defect rates start to add up the extra charges that JHAS would impose on QF would have turned the tables against the whole outsourcing operation.

Idiots like MH and slicker thought the aircraft would enter service and be trouble free. Even Styles said the operation only needed 3 or 6 LAMEs for Sydney. Any way you look at it the tender process was flawed, the business model was flawed, management was flawed. JHAS also thought they could use H96 to do other operators work if the won the contract. Even now the whole lack of spares due to Spairliners (based in france)being the supplier of quite a lot of components. So when your 380 breaks down in Sydney you need to ground the a/c for 2 days while waiting for parts.

What a total and utter %^ck up.

[mainwheel]

Confused.

QF are outsourcing work overseas to reduce costs. This work should be done in Australia.

2 MRO's in Australia are now being considered to also do some outsourced work for QF and obviously have to employ extra staff. This is described as overflow work, which JHAS already do for Jetstar and Virgin.

The ALAEA is considering industrial action in the form of a stop work meeting with minimal disruptions to further present EBA negotiations. One such stoppage already cancelled.

With no current industrial stalemates, how could there possibly be a scab list?

John Citizen joins JHAS or Forestaff tomorrow as a contract LAME, and unbeknown to him he can be considered a scab,and then suffer what goes with that title, if he signs for a QF aircraft.

It would seem pertinent for the ALAEA to clarify this ASAP, and perhaps inform all parties involved if any particular aircraft is to be blacklisted for whatever reason.

Australian MRO's getting more work means more jobs for Australians, bring the whole lot back i say.................

[another superlame]

Why would JHAS employ 744 or 767 LAMEs if they don't work on them? Just a thought.

Also, the alternate workforce needs to be ready before a strike not after a strike. Last time scabs were paid over $100k each to be on standby. For that money they didn't even need to lift a spanner. And the total cost of all those scabs with training travel and accomodation would probably have been more than the actual wages claim.

[another superlame]

You are right Imperial Shifter, I forgot about the Air Pac 744s and 767s.

[empire4]

I wish a lot of you QF folk on here would pull your head out of your A%@#. Its all about Qantas, all the time. You have to realise you are just the same as everyone else. The fact that you are trying to protect your wages, feed your family and pay the mortgage is evidence of this. So are the most people that don't work for QF, and the overwhelming majority of them don't won't to be anywhere near your fight. They don't want to be scabs. Some have already worked behind your pearly gates and decided to leave for what ever reasons.

How many Qantas guys have done a short term contract in asia? I know a lot. Wanna ask the locals how much their pay is? Maybe if holes weren't constantly filled by expats or contractors their pay would be higher. Oh, can't happen when it goes the other way. You can't blanket anyone who joins JHAS as a scab. they are just paying the bills like you.

The union should be more vocal in standing up for JHAS as well.

[SpannerTwister]

Originally Posted by empire4

.....The fact that you are trying to protect your wages, feed your family and pay the mortgage is evidence of this. So are the most people that don't work for QF.....

Well, There's an easy to prove this one way or another ...............

I'd suggest that if QF said "OK Guys (and girls), we accept that 3% is a fair inflation-based claim, so we'll give you 3%, and not a cent more, and here's a 100% rock-solid guarantee that from this day forward we will never again outsource so much as one tyre-change overseas and will, effective immediately, reinstate our HM capability." the LAMEs would vote for this unanimously !!

Originally Posted by empire4

........How many Qantas guys have done a short term contract in asia? I know a lot. Wanna ask the locals how much their pay is? Maybe if holes weren't constantly filled by expats or contractors their pay would be higher. Oh, can't happen when it goes the other way........

Well that makes no sense at all !!

What are you saying, That the Asian airlines are doing WRONG by employing HIGHER PAID contractors ??

QF won't even agree to employ EQUALLY PAID contractors !!

Hey Steve, Do you think that CN will put an offer like this to us....
"We want to use MORE contractors, but ONLY if you let us pay them MORE then we are paying you guys."

Originally Posted by empire4

......The union should be more vocal in standing up for JHAS as well.

For their full-time, non-scab, fair dinkum "workers", absolutely.

ST

[jet_mechanic]

I agree with what mainwheel said, QF have aircraft all over the place at the moment be it Asia or NZ. So now that QF are looking to put aircraft into Australian MRO's it is seen as a bad thing. I thought it was the ALAEA goal to keep all "overflow" work in Australia as a first choice, wheather it be JHAS or Forstaff rather than sending planes overseas.

Or maybe the QF boys are happier with a free holiday overseas for a few weeks, that to only go over to the next apron or a 50min drive down the road.

The QF members should only be angry at the compyany they work for, as they are the ones responsible for scaling down the work force that much that cant handle there own aircraft.