Letter to Geoffrey Thomas (Aviation expert)
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The LCCs will continue to do well in the backpacker, beach holiday and Kiwi F&R markets (and good luck to them)but IMO it's Singapore, Emirates and Cathay who will poach the Qantas pax, as Qantas management continues to fiddle while their product's reputation burns.
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The public will not pay what the engineers and pilots deserve
What percentage of a newspaper or magazine cost can be contributed to the cost of your articles?
Are you therefore responsible for the decline in print media in Australia?
I read newspapers and I know a few journalists. Can I call myself a print media expert?
Surely you realize that the wage argument is a red herring. If not, as a print media expert, my opinion is that your journalistic ability is worse than your aviation knowledge.
Originally Posted by Oxidant
Nail hit square on the head..........
When I last looked at it, a lot of the growth Emirates had was not at the expense of Qantas, it was a combination of more people flying, and other Asian carriers.
One cannot come up with a statistical basis for those comments based on a a single BITRE report.
P.s. Has anyone got a link to the P LAME or P AME website so I can bitch about my T&Cs ?
If Steve wants to get his cause heard, The Australian Frequent Flyer Online Community - The Australian Frequent Flyer would be a far better place.
Thanks for responding Geoffrey, (even if I don't agree with what you're saying).
As for:
As breakfastburrito says, the anonymity on this site is somewhat of a blessing as it allows free speech.
As you may or may not be aware, Qantas pilots have their own internet forum where real names are used. Management are frequent readers (and contributors), and as a result, the subsequent discussions are nowhere near as interesting, informative or probing.
As for:
8. One of you asked if I was brave enough. I am only one of two I think that actually uses my real name on PPRuNe. I am up to it.
As you may or may not be aware, Qantas pilots have their own internet forum where real names are used. Management are frequent readers (and contributors), and as a result, the subsequent discussions are nowhere near as interesting, informative or probing.
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oicur12.again
Re-read my post. I never said those airlines were LCC and its quite obvious they're not. But most other major non-LCC's are now thriving...Why is GT comparing QF to LCC's coming into Australia? Qantas HAVE one of those already! Its called Jetstar!!
Re-read my post. I never said those airlines were LCC and its quite obvious they're not. But most other major non-LCC's are now thriving...Why is GT comparing QF to LCC's coming into Australia? Qantas HAVE one of those already! Its called Jetstar!!
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One cannot come up with a statistical basis for those comments based on a a single BITRE report.
However, I don't see a statistical basis for Geoffery's statement either. I don't believe that the LCC phenomenon is as pervasive as all that, and the numbers show that most people still prefer to fly a full cost carrier when travelling internationally.
Last edited by Worrals in the wilds; 19th May 2011 at 07:16.
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Qantas Isn't interested in The Australian Market
I don't think Qantas has been interested in the Australian market for a long time.It sees its future in the larger markets of Asia.It would like to take it's whole operation off shore but is prevented from doing so by the Qantas Sale Act.The domestic arm does well but the international arm languishes.Its deliberate.Run it into the ground,piss off the staff and through a hedge fund (or some other entity)take it off shore.Dixon almost pulled that off.This is why the script has been transferred from Dixon to Joyce.It was why Joyce was given the gig.
The A380 will be the only Qantas Aircraft based in Australia.All others will be off shored.Those aircraft and crew based in Asia will feed the domestic arm and the intra asian Jetstar franchises.From my perspective thats how the end game will pan out.Regional stuff based in Asia on a lower cost base and longhaul exclusively A380 based in Australia.Engineering,call centres,administration and reservations all off shore courtesy of technology.
Are you Australian and want to work for Qantas ? Be prepared to live in Asia on lower than Australian wages.
Qantas dont care about the EBA negotiations.They dont care about PIA.All this just makes it easier for them to close the joint down and re open in Asia.Once this is done just watch the Qantas brand rebuilding begin in earnest.Via an Asian Ad agency I might add
The A380 will be the only Qantas Aircraft based in Australia.All others will be off shored.Those aircraft and crew based in Asia will feed the domestic arm and the intra asian Jetstar franchises.From my perspective thats how the end game will pan out.Regional stuff based in Asia on a lower cost base and longhaul exclusively A380 based in Australia.Engineering,call centres,administration and reservations all off shore courtesy of technology.
Are you Australian and want to work for Qantas ? Be prepared to live in Asia on lower than Australian wages.
Qantas dont care about the EBA negotiations.They dont care about PIA.All this just makes it easier for them to close the joint down and re open in Asia.Once this is done just watch the Qantas brand rebuilding begin in earnest.Via an Asian Ad agency I might add
Originally Posted by Worrals in the wilds
However, I don't see a statistical basis for Geoffery's statement either. I don't believe that the LCC phenomenon is as pervasive as all that, and the numbers show that most people still prefer to fly a full cost carrier when travelling internationally.
A lot, if not most of these were never operating internationally into Australia 5-10 years ago.
Originally Posted by InTheWeeds
After watching that clip I would be amazed if you can hold your head up while watching it.
GT is still only of only half a dozen or so aviation journalists worldwide that I find does get most of material right, and as anyone knows who has even been interviewed on TV, it is not hard to be backed into a corner until they have what they want from you.
If you want to give him some factual information, why not drop him and email, or call him. I have found him a very pleasant person to interact with in the past, and often you can have a conversation without breaching any data confidentially issues.
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There is such a thing as supply and demand - Australian engineers have been sought the world over. QF engineers are not the best payed when you take into account the number of A/C types they hold, take away the shift penalties and people would be shocked. Hell even the Manager of Chicken treat in Karatha is reported to be on $120k.
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@Spanner Turner
Bow to you my friend! Exactly my thoughts and something management will never be able to comprehend.
The kind of expertise people used to receive at Qantas Heavy Maintenance, Component, Workshops, Base, Survival, Engine Shops, you name it.... just priceless.... Something bean counters completely undervalue.
You can't teach that kind of stuff in a course. All you can do in various courses is satisfy regulatory requirements, which are the absolute bare minimums which aren't going to get you very far in real life.
The immersion and exposure to the basics and up to extremely complex processes and systems that cover the entire aircraft spectrum in all its tiniest facets that is represented by your journey through various sections of the aircraft maintenance business equipped you with an immense wealth of experience and knowledge rivalled only by the very best in the business.
It's only that kind of expertise that can pick up serious issues like the one you mentioned BEFORE they occur. Kelloggs licenced blokes let it fly until the f***ing gear snaps off.....
Sadly, those times are gone. The travelling public doesn't give a flying f**k about quality, especially not in aircraft maintenance. Show em a movie, stuff their faces with muffins, and promise them a 5$ deal (regardless how high the true hidden costs of the ticket actually are) and the cattle is happy. They are in fact twice happy. First because they reckon they caught a bargain and secondly because they can whinge about the crap experience they had
Sad state of our whole globalised world, greed, bloody greed. Very sad
This landing gear was very close to complete failure - but luckily the damage was picked up by an ex-Syd heavy maintenance engineer (is there any other kind ?)
The kind of expertise people used to receive at Qantas Heavy Maintenance, Component, Workshops, Base, Survival, Engine Shops, you name it.... just priceless.... Something bean counters completely undervalue.
You can't teach that kind of stuff in a course. All you can do in various courses is satisfy regulatory requirements, which are the absolute bare minimums which aren't going to get you very far in real life.
The immersion and exposure to the basics and up to extremely complex processes and systems that cover the entire aircraft spectrum in all its tiniest facets that is represented by your journey through various sections of the aircraft maintenance business equipped you with an immense wealth of experience and knowledge rivalled only by the very best in the business.
It's only that kind of expertise that can pick up serious issues like the one you mentioned BEFORE they occur. Kelloggs licenced blokes let it fly until the f***ing gear snaps off.....
Sadly, those times are gone. The travelling public doesn't give a flying f**k about quality, especially not in aircraft maintenance. Show em a movie, stuff their faces with muffins, and promise them a 5$ deal (regardless how high the true hidden costs of the ticket actually are) and the cattle is happy. They are in fact twice happy. First because they reckon they caught a bargain and secondly because they can whinge about the crap experience they had
Sad state of our whole globalised world, greed, bloody greed. Very sad
So , continue on boys biting the mouth that feeds you
unionist, (clearly an oxymoron) history is littered with examples of corporations exploiting their workforce. Were it not for the militancy (a necessary evil as it were) of workers, the rich would be even richer. Quite simply what is your point, and what do you have against those wish to negotiate their terms and conditions?
Not like you overpaid lot who vote Liberal
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Looking forward to your response GT.
Just my thoughts guys. GT has also been critical of Qf management and I don't suspect he has been involved in any cash for comments type arrangement. Also channel 7 who obviously run Sunrise have been good to our union in the past and I reckon they just think the things GT says are genuine and accurate.
GT has had my number for a few years and could always have called me. I hadn't seen the episode until it was posted on here and was no happier after viewing. When asked if Qantas Engineers get paid more than those at Virgin the response was an absolutely positive yes. I don't know where Geoff got that info from and it is incorrect. Then to hear that the claims of 1600 Engineers would cost between $300m - $400m a year was pretty poor. That equates to $187k - $250k each.
It looked very convincing GT and it was so wrong. I also disagree with your ideas on how Qantas has to change.
cheers
Steve
Just my thoughts guys. GT has also been critical of Qf management and I don't suspect he has been involved in any cash for comments type arrangement. Also channel 7 who obviously run Sunrise have been good to our union in the past and I reckon they just think the things GT says are genuine and accurate.
GT has had my number for a few years and could always have called me. I hadn't seen the episode until it was posted on here and was no happier after viewing. When asked if Qantas Engineers get paid more than those at Virgin the response was an absolutely positive yes. I don't know where Geoff got that info from and it is incorrect. Then to hear that the claims of 1600 Engineers would cost between $300m - $400m a year was pretty poor. That equates to $187k - $250k each.
It looked very convincing GT and it was so wrong. I also disagree with your ideas on how Qantas has to change.
cheers
Steve
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Mr Thomas,
To be considered an expert on any industry firstly you need to gain the respect of the people the actually work in that industry. You have just lost any you had.
You have, in a two and a half minute piece on Sunrise, shown your complete lack of knowledge and understanding of the underlying problems with Qantas management. The Engineers and Pilots now have to put their reputations and careers on the line to protect what was considered a given to the consumer when they flew Qantas, SAFETY!
These are people that have put a dollar amount on a "smoking hole in the ground" in the blind desire to minimise costs and maximise KPI's. It isn't even about the shareholders anymore, considering the share price of $2.10 and no dividend for two years. The pilots and engineers haven't put Qantas in this situation, Qantas management's mismanagement has done so.
I invite you next time you are in Sydney to drop by the Qantas offices and visit the crew from the QF32 and explain to them that they are not worth the money they are paid and that it is OK to offshore their jobs because it will make Qantas more profitable. Explain to them why its OK to now have no career progression and that their experience doesn't matter because a 200 hour cadet could easily take their place. This is what is going on in the Qantas group and highlights managements attitude to their experienced staff, FACT!
Your piece on Sunrise was insulting to all Qantas pilots and engineers and wont be forgotten quickly. We are hard working professionals that ONLY have the best interest of Qantas at heart. You need to remember that it is this collective group of employees that will have careers (probably not anymore) with Qantas upwards of 30 plus years, not Mr Joyce and his bum boys.
I look forward to your reply to SP, (these are concerns that affect both groups intimately but fail continually to be addressed by Mr Joyce and co) and although I am sure you will be sympathetic and understanding, it will be only lip service until you get off your arse and investigate these and other serious claims that are plaguing our industry and airline. Then you may gain some respect again.
And get back on Sunrise and correct the "misunderstandings" you have helped to create.
To be considered an expert on any industry firstly you need to gain the respect of the people the actually work in that industry. You have just lost any you had.
You have, in a two and a half minute piece on Sunrise, shown your complete lack of knowledge and understanding of the underlying problems with Qantas management. The Engineers and Pilots now have to put their reputations and careers on the line to protect what was considered a given to the consumer when they flew Qantas, SAFETY!
These are people that have put a dollar amount on a "smoking hole in the ground" in the blind desire to minimise costs and maximise KPI's. It isn't even about the shareholders anymore, considering the share price of $2.10 and no dividend for two years. The pilots and engineers haven't put Qantas in this situation, Qantas management's mismanagement has done so.
I invite you next time you are in Sydney to drop by the Qantas offices and visit the crew from the QF32 and explain to them that they are not worth the money they are paid and that it is OK to offshore their jobs because it will make Qantas more profitable. Explain to them why its OK to now have no career progression and that their experience doesn't matter because a 200 hour cadet could easily take their place. This is what is going on in the Qantas group and highlights managements attitude to their experienced staff, FACT!
Your piece on Sunrise was insulting to all Qantas pilots and engineers and wont be forgotten quickly. We are hard working professionals that ONLY have the best interest of Qantas at heart. You need to remember that it is this collective group of employees that will have careers (probably not anymore) with Qantas upwards of 30 plus years, not Mr Joyce and his bum boys.
I look forward to your reply to SP, (these are concerns that affect both groups intimately but fail continually to be addressed by Mr Joyce and co) and although I am sure you will be sympathetic and understanding, it will be only lip service until you get off your arse and investigate these and other serious claims that are plaguing our industry and airline. Then you may gain some respect again.
And get back on Sunrise and correct the "misunderstandings" you have helped to create.
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Originally Posted by ALAEA Fed Sec
...In return, we get paid a reasonable wage and so we should. Our remuneration is certainly not excessive. Our wages start at $63,440 when we have one licence....
Average earners waving, not drowning | Herald Sun
The base LAME wage is way too low. As Qantas is absolutely rolling in cash, they can afford a measly 3%.
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Looking forward to your response GT.
Maybe it is being compiled as we speak.
$300 mill!! Thats a joke. I am sure, however, that they wouldn't bat an eyelid in spending that to destroy us. They tried to last EBA.