BNE ATC Holding

[Jack Ranga]

A mate has a mate who works for Melbourne Airport and they couldn't give a flying f@ck about building parallel runways. They want more retail and CARPARKS, CARPARKS make money not runways. They get their coin from the airlines no matter how much holding happens.

[Jabawocky]

..........and the more holding, the more revenue generated in the CARPARKS.

What a business model

Wish I owned an airport

[Mr. Hat]

Can't remember an occasion where we've arrived in BNE without holding or slowing down. It makes SYD look good. At least Sydney can say they have people coming from everywhere.

[Cactusjack]

Inbound Brisbane from Mackay in the evenings has always been a pain in the freckle. ALWAYS holding or slowed down. I am sure BNE ATC hate FNQ folk

[max1]

I am sure BNE ATC hate FNQ folk

Love you, some of the better people in the centre actually come from there, as do some of the others.

It makes SYD look good. At least Sydney can say they have people coming from everywhere.

You need to get out more.
Brisbane and Sydney (from the North and East) arrivals are done from the same Centre.
We only have 2 centres in Australia.
Come and have a look, we (the people who plug in at least) are not out to upset pilots and their punters, come and have a chinwag.

I have a dream, 3 parallel runways with high speed taxiways at all aerodromes, no holding, enough controllers so that we are not asked on every day off to do overtime (true BTW) , the ability to be released for promotions/transfers, a roster that lasts longer than milk and makes some effort to embrace a FRMS, managers who actually have the interests of the airlines and travelling public at heart not their next bonus or job security

[BackdoorBandit]

Inbound Brisbane from Mackay in the evenings has always been a pain in the freckle. ALWAYS holding or slowed down. I am sure BNE ATC hate FNQ folk

As far as I am aware, FNQ is north of Cardwell (approx midway between TL and CS). Mackay is not even regarded as NQ, just CQ I'm afraid.

[Mr. Hat]

You need to get out more.

You're not wrong there! I do indeed.

Might just be my luck but out of the last 10 times I've been into BNE in a row we've never had a clean run. Into SYD I have on a few occasions.

Anyway I know you guys are doing your best wasn't having a crack.

[Nautilus Blue]

P-Dubby - interesting info there. So it turns out that EGKK DOESN'T have a higher arrival rate than BN, or ML or PH. Belief, perception and expectation play a big part in these debates. We always used to say that pilots would complain about a delay into PH that they would be pleasantly surprised at into SY.

We do though have the tools to do strategic flow, CTMS from the NOC. PH have been using it for months, and I'm certain it wasn't something new when we got it.

As for Australian ATC being archaic, look into the implementation/installation timelines of RVSM, CPDLC, ADS-C, ADS-B, Flex Tracks/UPR's and reduced lateral sep, don't think we've done too bad. I've just said something nice about ASA, so I'm going to go wash.

[Blockla]

Strategic on ground delays not being effective are mostly about compliance. In Europe Tower controllers are aware of departure times issued. They are chartered to enforce these; so in the event that you are running early or late you need to refile for a new slot time. There are very few 'non towered' aerodromes for departure involved when you are landing at EGKK or EGLL.

Apples and Oranges, CTMS times are effectively unknown to ATCs in OZ and the system is relying compliance from the end user. When a review was conducted in late 07 early 08 one company was found to be effectively ignoring anything CTMS related; and what was the penalty for non-compliance, extra holding for them and everyone else...

The European FMU (Brussells) programs long sector arrivals such as from USA or Asia into the arrivals sequence with (something like) 4 hours to go; so it seems that aircraft/pilots from Aus get no/or little delays even when going into places like Heathrow; when in fact the reality is everyone else is in effect slotted around this traffic. Apples and Oranges...

Similarly long sector arrivals (USA and DBX etc.) are given a max delay on arrival at Sydney (ML and BN too probably) so it would appear to them that they don't get delayed going in there either... I used to work SY arrivals and I can remember so horrific delays some days and then watching the OMDB or OMAA LAX SFO getting straight through with only speed control due to the 'rules'.

[shinning]

Excellent points Dubby. CTMS was way wrong. Acft held at times throughout the afternoon and then with no gaps at all, on a 3min arrival sequence, between about 1700 (or earlier?) until 2220 local. Approach worked hard all night, but it's worth mentioning the effort the arrivals sectors put in with hours of holding multiple acft, weather diversions, as well as trying to thread the departures back out through all of it.

Angle of Attack - Regarding the 6 min gap after your arrival. if you're talking about Friday night just gone there were probably a couple of these and the potential for many more. Due to almost every acft diverting around weather during that evening, most acft ended up off STAR for some or all of the arrival phase. Due to the dynamics of the weather and the pilot's appreciation of the best route around it at the time, not too many acft followed the same path. Some divert a lot, some not so much.... the result is that some can end up a long way behind the one they're supposed to be following, with a few bunching up behind them. Sometimes there is another acft nearby that can be moved up in the sequence to take advantage of the gap, which happened a few times, sometimes there isn't, hence the 6 min gap you saw. In most cases the 1st acft after any was followed by a few more a scratchy 3 miles behind on min speed.

At the end of the day, it's no one's fault, it's just trying to make the best of the cards that have been dealt on the day with the resources at hand. As P-Dubby says above, we're all on the same side, and I can assure you everyone was working professionally and doing what they could to minimise the pain/holding as fairly as possible.

[haughtney1]

P-Dubby, the gentleman in question was/is probably used to getting a NZ1 arrival (you are number 1...) at home base, and hence found it difficult to accept an 8 minute delay.
That being said, most more modern types of medium/Longhaul machines (includind Air NZ A320's I'd imagine) are datalink equipped, and so give contollers a live snapshot of eta's etc.
How difficult would it be for example to get the departure delayed out of AKL delayed for 8 minutes? Or does that go all the way back to the issue of flow control and ATM?
From a piloting perspective..losing 8 minutes is easy if we have 4-5hrs notice...just back off a bit on the cruise Mach, losing it within 300nm of destination is impossible...1 or 2 minutes is JUST a bout doable in an hour. I am personally much happier hitting a hold and flying around in 4 minute circles at a medium level sipping fuel, rather than for instance getting vectored all over the place flying inefficiently and blowing my contingency and flexibility out the exhaust pipe.
Its a battle for you guys..thats for sure.

[sunnySA]

a roster that lasts longer than milk

Max1,
That is a gem. Do you have copyright on it?

P-Duddy

the Tower do not actually know the inbound delays

Whilst they do not know the specific delay, at TWRs that have a Maestro list the information is available, otherwise a review of the paper strip to compare system ETA and the landing time will be a pretty good indication.


shinning

3 min arrival sequence

Were there a departure between every arrival if not, why the 3 min arrival sequence? What about 3/2/3/2 or such like.

[towerboy]

I went to the supermarket today!

2 checkouts open...and 2 lines of shoppers!

A group of us went at the same time (we're very close)...and you wouldn't believe it...they delayed us to two at a time! The inefficiency is obvious! I waited for 30 minutes!!!

It wasn't our fault that we all went at the same time to the checkout, it was that they didn't provide enough aisles for the "let's have dinner" group of 150 people!

Would you believe it, they tried to say, take your time coming to the register?

BTW, I tried to get an 8am seat with all the airlines last week and was told that there were no seats available.

Surely airlines can predict these things and cater accordingly?

It's not about staff availability...is it?

If I was in Denver I could get a seat!

Australian airlines have a lot to answer for.

Why can't they deliver what they say they will?

I waited 2 hours with my wife for a technical fault with Qa ...but we were told nothing!

Get real.

Towerboy.

[Flava Saver]

Nice post towerboy. I had a chuckle. Well written.

Most airline drivers are aware there is an infrastructure issue in BNE. But can we ask for one thing...when we get a STAR clearance 180 track miles from BNE expecting a miracle 8-10 min loss, how about some heads up 15 mins earlier poss so we can throttle back in the cruise & avoid a lap or 2 at SMOKA?

This isn't a personal dig, but some manager needs to get his effin stuff in order if the flow computer isn't doing it's thing. It's 2011!! Got to say it's such a pleasure operating into busy overseas airports who rack em and stack em rarely!

[le Pingouin]

That being said, most more modern types of medium/Longhaul machines (includind Air NZ A320's I'd imagine) are datalink equipped, and so give contollers a live snapshot of eta's etc.
How difficult would it be for example to get the departure delayed out of AKL delayed for 8 minutes? Or does that go all the way back to the issue of flow control and ATM?

We'd need to use a system along the lines that Blockla mentions.

Currently we just take you in the order you come - MAESTRO calculates your untouched estimate for the threshold, which gives the landing order & after inserting the appropriate time spacing between aircraft gives your landing time. The landing time is then used to calculate back to a time at the fix.

When there is high arrival demand a few seconds can change your delay significantly - if five aircraft are all nominally arriving within the one minute a small change in calculated estimate can put you at the end or the front of the queue with a commensurate change in delay.

It's possible to set a maximum delay for an individual aircraft (as mentioned for those departing Africa & the US or MED1 & VIP) or to set the landing time, but this isn't a routine thing.

In short, delays are totally dynamic & there is no real effort to control them.

[Blockla]

In short, delays are totally dynamic & there is no real effort to control them.

Well Said... But from which end... You mention slot times to airline execs and they cringe... Probably because the way things have gone in the past every attempt to reduce/save/add efficiency has been f'cked up because of some penny pinching process that ASA tried to implement as 'good enough' instead of being resourced properly... What exactly is the NOC doing? Was/Is it a good investment? If it is a good investment, for who?

[framer]

Would it not help if all the a/c depating NZ gave an estimate for the oceanic boundry before they left NZ airspace and that info was used to give them a fix time 3 mins seperate from all the other Tasman flights?
I realise it is a complicated situation that I don,t understand fully and that there are a lot of other a/c arriving from other directions but wouldn,t that at least provide some spacing? Maybe make it 4 mins to accomdate other a/c and reduce the fuel burn across the Tasman.
I imagine its not practical for some reason.....I just can.t see why.

[Nautilus Blue]

We'd need to use a system along the lines that Blockla mentions.

It exists, the NOC can do it. PH is using CTMS differently, possibly not having MAESTRO is a blessing in disguise. The NOC runs the sequence the night before and posts the landing/slot times to the airlines. There are/were compliance issues, and you have to be prepared to hold the early ones and let the on-timers through, but it does help. Get your ALM's to speak to PH's and the NOC, and speak the PH flow's.

...losing it within 300nm of destination is impossible...1 or 2 minutes is JUST a bout doable in an hour

haughtney1 - can I assume you fly an Airbus heavy? I've seen 737's for example lose 10+ minutes from that sort of distance. Until we started using fix times, I didn't even know a jet could descend at less than 230kts!

[Roger Sir]

It exists, the NOC can do it.

Yes, the NOC can do it! Maybe we in en-route and TMA have been doing it all wrong! Let`s leave the sequencing into the major capital cities on the eastern seaboard to the NOC.

We`ve recently seen how the NOC have had ALOFT working like a dream. Maybe i was asleep and it was a dream!

Seriously though. Brisbane has had a few bad afternoons with single runway ops and poor wx. and, combined with steadily increasing traffic levels, the delays have increased. Get used to it.

Some good ideas thrown about on this thread by people who work the traffic and are generally aware of what the customer wants. The trouble is we can only work with the tools we have and within the constraints of our procedures. I would love to tell you guys and gals bound for Vegas to slow down but i have no idea of the delays unless i`m told by the sectors adjacent to me who handle traffic holding. If they are not too busy they may ask me to slow some down but when the holding and wx. are as bad as the other Friday then, from all accounts i`ve heard, the controllers are at 99% of their capacity to provide a SAFE and efficient service for both inbounds and outbounds. From the south of Brisbane to Coffs it`s just two en-route guys. If they sound busy it`s because they are!

Until we have more bitumen the parking lots will be used more and more.

Maybe CDM will fix some of the extended holding but there are other issues at play that i`m not privvy to e.g gates being required elsewhere so depart aircraft 'on time" knowing full well they`ll be late and burn heaps of fuel.

The solution? Long term we all know the answer but until then? Time to from a committee me thinks....

[Oakape]

Australian ATC doesn't enforce slot times - we have no way of knowing & just takes you as you come. First in best dressed.

Currently we just take you in the order you come - MAESTRO calculates your untouched estimate for the threshold, which gives the landing order & after inserting the appropriate time spacing between aircraft gives your landing time. The landing time is then used to calculate back to a time at the fix.

When there is high arrival demand a few seconds can change your delay significantly - if five aircraft are all nominally arriving within the one minute a small change in calculated estimate can put you at the end or the front of the queue with a commensurate change in delay.

As far as the early slow down notification - this works when long delays are predicted. Unfortunately, controllers don't have the tools yet to see this. MAESTRO is a short term tactical (200nm) blunt instrument. As a Flow I can actually see aircraft on radar (no ADS link for the flow for some reason) that MAESTRO has not yet looked at. So an initial 3 or 4 min delay for an aircraft, can quickly blow out to 10-15 min or more when the other aircraft start populating the MAESTRO window. The sequence is often impossible to lock in until 160-180 nm - this is far too late to be effective for enroute slow downs.

The trouble is we can only work with the tools we have and within the constraints of our procedures.

The system, as it stands, doesn't reward slowing down en-route with less delay. The only way to get the least amount of delay is to be first at the appropriate 'gate'. It has been this way for years.

In years gone by, if holding was anticipated I would never slow down & some times even increased speed to get to the gate as close to the front of the que as possible. It would appear that things haven't changed much.

As le Pingouin says, "First in, best dressed".