Perth Airport
Originally Posted by Continental520
a) there is no way for the controllers to easily know/incorporate each aircraft PTL into the job
) is required to obtain a PTL beforehand. So every aircraft is known by the system. Further, they are supposed to hit it within 10 minutes. Obviously there's going to be a bit of shuffling but, unless pilots are butting in, there shouldn't be too much holding because there will be a slot for each aircraft.
b) The system is designed outside most aircraft capability in that it requires 'to the second' accuracy, and creates a '30 second early/late' type error
The FFs are far enough away to allow speed control to generate a couple of miles separation, either increased or decreased.
From where I sit, the system works pretty well. I don't get held nearly as much as before. Everybody has to do the right thing though.
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It is good to have these debates, its really the only chance we gave to talk to crews. Its hard not to get spiky and defensive though 
. I guess I've confused the issue by discussing the feeder fix time, which is different to CTMS/PTL. CTMS is s strategic device to match demand to availability using ground delays, whereas FF are a tactical tool to achieve sequencing.
Continental-520 - the short answer is its better than doing nothing, and it solves more problems than it makes.
The 'system' in this case is an excel spreadsheet on a PC in CB, not connected to TAATS in any way. To be honest I don't think it occurred to any of us that monitoring compliance was going to be necessary. (Also, the way I read the NOTAM, its ALL scheduled ops, and non-sched depatring within 800nm.)
Thats a FF issue rather than PTL, my fault. The one specific case of two aircraft in trail adjusting their own speed is less efficient and safe than us assigning speeds and/or vectoring. It does explain why sometimes you will get a FF, and then a vector/speed at late notice. Also bear in mind that the people designing and pushing to implement these procedures don't work traffic and don't use them, but that our problem not yours.
Aircraft in trail on descent at the same speed will, overall, close up. Speed reduction isn't linear though, especially with different profiles eg Airbus vs Boeing, or domestic medium vs intl heavy. You can watch the speeds swing between some closing, some opening, some closing, lots of closing, oops! Now consider a chain of 5 or 6 aircraft doing the same. By slowing you down the controller may have solved one problem and made another, thus requiring an increase later.
Alternatively, they may have just made an error. Monday lunchtime a 717 was given a FF/250kts - cancel FF - max speed cancel speed below 10 - reduce to 230kts, while a turboprop received hold- cancel hold turn inboud now profile speed - orbit -FF/220kts. Not even I an going to try to defend that!
willadvise - (cough)fokker conspiracy(cough)
Edited to add : two interesting quotes from the airport master plan,
. I guess I've confused the issue by discussing the feeder fix time, which is different to CTMS/PTL. CTMS is s strategic device to match demand to availability using ground delays, whereas FF are a tactical tool to achieve sequencing.Continental-520 - the short answer is its better than doing nothing, and it solves more problems than it makes.
Originally Posted by Continental520
Every aircraft arriving during the holding period (after departure from inside 800nm ) is required to obtain a PTL beforehand. So every aircraft is known by the system.
a) there is no way for the controllers to easily know/incorporate each aircraft PTL into the job
b) The system is designed outside most aircraft capability in that it requires 'to the second' accuracy, and creates a '30 second early/late' type error
if 40 kt faster will keep spacing between me and the one behind, why would the same controller slow me down 10nm earlier when the preceding traffic is faster?
Alternatively, they may have just made an error. Monday lunchtime a 717 was given a FF/250kts - cancel FF - max speed cancel speed below 10 - reduce to 230kts, while a turboprop received hold- cancel hold turn inboud now profile speed - orbit -FF/220kts. Not even I an going to try to defend that!
willadvise - (cough)fokker conspiracy(cough)
Edited to add : two interesting quotes from the airport master plan,
Annual aircraft movements are forecast to increase from 107,000 movements in 2008 to 170,000 movements in 2029.
It is considered unlikely that any of the runway developments will be required during the 20 year planning period of this Master Plan 2009.
Last edited by Nautilus Blue; 13th Apr 2011 at 08:02.
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You think that PH airport is having trouble coping, then have a read of this:
33 000 workers needed in WA by next year | Australian Mining
I particularly like this bit:
WAC needs some pressure from government. Barnett should be riding them like a mule! They are now a major restriction on economic activity and potential revenue in the west.
The great T.W.A debacle has not even begun to be built yet and it is already looking inadequate.
33 000 workers needed in WA by next year | Australian Mining
I particularly like this bit:
As many as 90 per cent of the workforce will be employed on fly-in., fly-out contracts, which is sure to further add to the already hot debate about FIFO work.
The great T.W.A debacle has not even begun to be built yet and it is already looking inadequate.
Originally Posted by Nautilus Blue
To be honest I don't think it occurred to any of us that monitoring compliance was going to be necessary.
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Barnett should be riding them like a mule! They are now a major restriction on economic activity and potential revenue in the west.
- Make RAAF Pearce a Joint-User airfield.
- Invite only the FIFO operators to the party, by contract, Monday to Friday between 1800H - 0800H and weekends only.
- Call the civil side Muchea Airport.
- Install a bucket-load of air-conditioned de-mountables on the Neaves Rd side of the runways.
- Grade a sealed, fenced, road connecting the de-mountables with Neaves Rd.
- Run an express coach service between the de-mountables and Joondalup Railway Station.
The Boys & Girls-in-Blue will choke on their beers... but... if you give it some thought...
How many FIFO flights in the morning departure burst are off the ground and clear of the Restricted Areas before the Boys & Girls-in-Blue have started work?
How many FIFO flights return from the mines after the Boys & Girls-in-Blue are comfortably in the Mess?
A lot cheaper than trying to build a new runway, buildings, services and access at Perth Airport... if you can bully WAC into achieving it all by next year... and... do you really think they can?
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Most operators have figured that the PTL is not enforced so they just depart anyway. Some have done the right thing and delayed their departure for 40 mins only to cop another 30min delay airborne are are not happy about it so next time they just depart and take a chance.
Just everyone remember, especially as it's going to get much much worse that the situation is neither the ATCer nor the Pilots' fault. No one is Right and no one is Wrong.
The blame sits squarely at the government for privatising the airport and allowing Pearce to exist this side of Learmonth; WAC for being grossly incompetent and near sighted and Airnoservices for being.....well.....all of the above.
The economy and state will suffer but those responsible will be long gone!
This is not going to change until someone starts loosing a lot of money.
Until then, we just have to show understanding on both sides.
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With all the mixed traffic into Perth, with all the varying speeds it amazed me that a common speed requirement has not been implemented ie 160kts to 4 dme. (don't tell me it can't be done, it works well in the UK, Europe and the USofA.)
Costs
How about every operator sends invoices for any extra fuel used, airframe hours wasted in holding or vectored track miles to WAC and then they can decide on the economics of an extra runway. At present the aircraft operators are bearing the cost of Perth Airports innefficiencies. The airport owner gets off scot free and still charges for it's so called services. The costs should go to the organisation causing the problem.
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I am interested in what you all tell your passengers when you cop one of these delays. Do you blame it on ATC or do you explain to them the reason for the delay is that demand for landing (or taxy) slots exceeds the supply and there is nothing that ATC/Qantas/Skywest/Skippers/Virgin etc can do about it. The only way it will improve is the construction of another runway? For those operating FIFO do you tell Fortescue/BHP/Woodside etc that the reason why there staff are 30mins late is because there is not enough capacity or do you blame it on ATC.
If not, then start doing so because the only way it is going to change is if the public and the mining companies which pays all our bills start making noise about it.
If not, then start doing so because the only way it is going to change is if the public and the mining companies which pays all our bills start making noise about it.
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Direct China-to-Perth flights to lift travel, tourism | Perth Now
Enjoy Perth ATC I get a good laugh out of Sydney giving these lads a bit of a chat!
Enjoy Perth ATC I get a good laugh out of Sydney giving these lads a bit of a chat!
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Was only a matter of when. I wonder where they will park them.
The Chinese tourists will be amazed to see and visit a 3rd world airport for the 1st time
They will have just left the latest greatest that they got to on a high speed train. Google Guangzhou Airport and look at the pictures. Vision, planning and commitment - and probably a few billion dollars. Now that's an airport. WOW
If we what we have is the result of the "great resource boom" economy I can only shiver at the thought of what we left behind, because the PH Airport that WAC presides over is embarrassingly cringe worthy:
WAC announcing Mr Brad Geatches as CEO. The Age, 25 January 2007
WAC Press Release 23 March 2007.
WAC Press Release 21 August 2007
Mr Brad Geatches, WAC Press Release 10 December 2007
Mr Brad Geatches, WAC Press Release 24 January 2008
ABC News 2 April 2008
Mr Brad Geatches, WAC Press Release 2 April 2008
Mr Brad Geatches, WAC Press Release 1 May 2008
WAC Press Release, 15 May 2009
WAC Press Release 23 July 2009
WAC Press Release, 3 November 2009
The press releases have mainly been fluff pieces about new shops and airline services since then.
Did someone say accountability?
The Chinese tourists will be amazed to see and visit a 3rd world airport for the 1st time
They will have just left the latest greatest that they got to on a high speed train. Google Guangzhou Airport and look at the pictures. Vision, planning and commitment - and probably a few billion dollars. Now that's an airport. WOW
If we what we have is the result of the "great resource boom" economy I can only shiver at the thought of what we left behind, because the PH Airport that WAC presides over is embarrassingly cringe worthy:
"We believe Perth Airport will benefit from his contemporary management style and strategic thinking along with excellent implementation."
Perth is working to meet demand and cement its position as one of Australia’s most successful airports,” added Mr Geatches.
Mr Geatches said that Perth Airport was Western Australia’s most important infrastructure asset.
Our responsibility is to respond to this continued growth by delivering solutions which provide a positive passenger experience and enable our airline partners to operate as efficiently as possible.”
“We have recognised the need to bring forward airport expansion plans and detailed studies are happening right now,” said Mr Geatches.
Our responsibility is to respond to this continued growth by delivering solutions which provide a positive passenger experience and enable our airline partners to operate as efficiently as possible.”
“We have recognised the need to bring forward airport expansion plans and detailed studies are happening right now,” said Mr Geatches.
“I also thank all users of Perth Airport for their patience during 2007. I am looking forward to 2008 which will mark some important and exciting milestones in the future of Perth Airport.”
Perth Airport also serves as a vital infrastructure asset for Western Australia’s resources sector. Our partnership with the resources industry goes from strength to strength as we continue to support growth in fly-in fly-out operations
Mr Geatches added that Perth Airport’s continued growth was strengthening the business case to initiate a major expansion of airport infrastructure.
Mr Geatches added that Perth Airport’s continued growth was strengthening the business case to initiate a major expansion of airport infrastructure.
The Premier Alan Carpenter has described Perth's Domestic Airport as an embarrassment to the state and called on its owners to embark on an immediate upgrade.
"Because I don't want to stand in queues with people who are embarrassed if they are Western Australians or very very unhappy if they are visitors coming to WA and seeing Perth Airport and thinking that somehow or other that reflects upon the state broadly," he said.
The Airport's Chief Executive Brad Geatches says he shares the Premier's concerns and says an announcement on a major redevelopment will be made within weeks.
"We're on the job, there's is no lack of commitment, there is no lack of preparedness to invest," he said.
"Because I don't want to stand in queues with people who are embarrassed if they are Western Australians or very very unhappy if they are visitors coming to WA and seeing Perth Airport and thinking that somehow or other that reflects upon the state broadly," he said.
The Airport's Chief Executive Brad Geatches says he shares the Premier's concerns and says an announcement on a major redevelopment will be made within weeks.
"We're on the job, there's is no lack of commitment, there is no lack of preparedness to invest," he said.
Perth Airport is committed to delivering world class airport facilities to the people of Western Australia. Perth Airport is an essential element in the economic and social infrastructure of this State and we agree that Western Australians deserve an outstanding airport.
Perth Airport is a vital element in Western Australia’s resources sector, providing a commuter hub for the many thousands of fly-in fly-out workers who are employed on resources projects in remote locations throughout the State. The new terminal for flights within Western Australia will provide these workers with a superior travel experience, with a good retail offering and easy access to price effective long term car parking.
We want Perth Airport to be a place which Western Australians are proud to call their own. That is why our plans will produce more than an airport. As well as new terminal buildings, we are looking at building at a range of facilities and features that will make Perth Airport a destination in its own right.
We want Perth Airport to be a place which Western Australians are proud to call their own. That is why our plans will produce more than an airport. As well as new terminal buildings, we are looking at building at a range of facilities and features that will make Perth Airport a destination in its own right.
Perth Airport Chief Executive Officer, Mr Brad Geatches said the impact of the economic slowdown on aviation demand in Western Australia has been less than that experienced elsewhere in Australia and overseas.
Perth Airport has experienced the highest passenger growth rates of any Australia capital city airport, reporting a 6.1% increase in passenger numbers for the 2008/2009 financial year.
Over 9.7 million passengers travelled through Perth Airport during this period, an increase of 555,815 passengers over the previous financial year. International passenger growth stood at 4.2%, while domestic passenger growth of 6.7% was recorded.
Over 9.7 million passengers travelled through Perth Airport during this period, an increase of 555,815 passengers over the previous financial year. International passenger growth stood at 4.2%, while domestic passenger growth of 6.7% was recorded.
The approval of the new Master Plan is another important milestone for the company’s plans to redevelop Perth Airport.
We are pleased that our Master Plan has been approved and we are looking forward to implementing our plans to deliver facilities and services that all Western Australians will be proud of,” Mr Geatches said.
We are pleased that our Master Plan has been approved and we are looking forward to implementing our plans to deliver facilities and services that all Western Australians will be proud of,” Mr Geatches said.
The press releases have mainly been fluff pieces about new shops and airline services since then.
Did someone say accountability?
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The blame sits squarely at the government for privatising the airport and allowing Pearce to exist this side of Learmonth
RAAF Pearce should become a Joint-User airfield with a caretaker unit on the RAAF side and a full civilian airport built on the other side of the runways. Rename it and use it as a civilian airport until the next war. By which time WAC... might... have completed the parallel runway and terminal extensions at Perth.
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Good idea Quokka.
In the short term all they would need is a shed at Pearce for the LCCs to operate from, a bus service between the two airports, and a tweaking of airspace design.
In the short term all they would need is a shed at Pearce for the LCCs to operate from, a bus service between the two airports, and a tweaking of airspace design.
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...and the WAC solution to the problem:
"The West Australian", page 13, Monday April 18, 2011.
Perth Airport is to impose hefty charges on small aircraft at peak times in an effort to untangle the logjam snarling operations and preventing bigger aircraft getting critical take-off slots.
From July 1, the airport will charge $3.65 a passenger for all airlines, but with a $200 minimum in peak periods, which will hit any aircraft below a 55-seat capacity. It also charges $10.44 per passenger for using its domestic terminal and $15.36 for each international passenger.
Airport chief executive Brad Geatches said the new minimum peak charge was an incentive to get airlines to operate outside the peaks and to move to larger aircraft. The demand for early morning flights is driven by fly in, fly out workers.
From July 1, the airport will charge $3.65 a passenger for all airlines, but with a $200 minimum in peak periods, which will hit any aircraft below a 55-seat capacity. It also charges $10.44 per passenger for using its domestic terminal and $15.36 for each international passenger.
Airport chief executive Brad Geatches said the new minimum peak charge was an incentive to get airlines to operate outside the peaks and to move to larger aircraft. The demand for early morning flights is driven by fly in, fly out workers.
From the local Community News, 19 Apri 2011:
And here's me thinking those new A330 markings at Terminal 2 were for Qantaslink's upgrade! 
Five tender for new air terminal
FIVE companies are in the running to build Perth Airport's first new terminal in more than two decades. Corporate affairs general manager Fiona Lander said the terminal would primarily service flights for the resource sector's fly-in fly-out market plus some interstate routes.
"It is expected that over a million passengers will travel through the terminal during its first year of operation in 2013," she said. She added there has been increasing demand on airport services, including a record 10.4 million passenger movements last year.
The single-story terminal will be adjacent to the International Terminal.
Perth Airport chief executive Brad Geatches said: "all airlines from the current domestic terminals, other than Virgin Blue, Qantas and Jetstar, will locate
to the new terminal.
"Not only will the airlines and their passengers benefit greatly from the new terminal, but the move will also substantially reduce activity in the current domestic precinct, thereby improving our customers' experiences in the existing terminals."
The terminal will have 16 check-in counters, a larger security screening zone, 14 aircraft gates and an aircraft parking area able to park 36 aircraft.
The tender closing day is May 20 and the contract is expected to be awarded by July 2011.
FIVE companies are in the running to build Perth Airport's first new terminal in more than two decades. Corporate affairs general manager Fiona Lander said the terminal would primarily service flights for the resource sector's fly-in fly-out market plus some interstate routes.
"It is expected that over a million passengers will travel through the terminal during its first year of operation in 2013," she said. She added there has been increasing demand on airport services, including a record 10.4 million passenger movements last year.
The single-story terminal will be adjacent to the International Terminal.
Perth Airport chief executive Brad Geatches said: "all airlines from the current domestic terminals, other than Virgin Blue, Qantas and Jetstar, will locate
to the new terminal.
"Not only will the airlines and their passengers benefit greatly from the new terminal, but the move will also substantially reduce activity in the current domestic precinct, thereby improving our customers' experiences in the existing terminals."
The terminal will have 16 check-in counters, a larger security screening zone, 14 aircraft gates and an aircraft parking area able to park 36 aircraft.
The tender closing day is May 20 and the contract is expected to be awarded by July 2011.