Dodgy J* pilot ferrys dodgy A320 out of Indonesia
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Right on swr, there is not all that much chance of stuffing up the panel layout
Like you say, the wire bundles are quite short, the connector keyways differ and the panel sizes and shapes vary.
Might have been something simple like the observers acp and the blank panel where the rmp might go?
Something like that might go unnoticed? Might be a storm in a teacup.
Like you say, the wire bundles are quite short, the connector keyways differ and the panel sizes and shapes vary.
Might have been something simple like the observers acp and the blank panel where the rmp might go?
Something like that might go unnoticed? Might be a storm in a teacup.
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I now wish I had never seen this thread, or posted on it, however just a few points.
max1,
I hope you are NOT being sarcastic, because that is exactly how it was in my day, well all of my 40 years in the Industry.
The Electra thing was no big deal, empty aircraft on a ferry flight, Crew knew all we knew about the aircraft, and anyway similar aircraft (Orion) does this every day in fact routinely shut down 2 engines and cruise around.
One example that hilights EXACTLY what you are saying is again many years ago now I had a DC9 transiting BNE from SYD heading off to TSV and CNS, while doing the walkround I just was not happy with the way #1 engine looked, the Company wanted it to go obviously and when I discussed it with the Crew, even though I wasn't sure what it was that was worrying me they backed me and we delayed the flight. Turned out the rear mount bolt (one of only three holding the engine in for those that don't know) was broken, could have lost the engine any time.
Yes I honestly believe things were much better AND safer back then.
I actually have a bit of respect for airsupport in that he is probably from that nostalgic era when pilots and engineers were actually listened to and respected.
Dispatch (engineers) said that aircraft is a bit dodgy we're not that comfortable with it being taken out. The pilot had a bit of a chat with the ground engineer who had dealt with the problem and either said "Okay we go" or the engineer said "It's stuffed" and the pilot said "We aren't going". That was the end of story, the bean counter, the PR person,etc didn't get a look in.
Quote:
We had an Electra many years (decades) ago, here in BNE undergoing a routine scheduled service, one engine was found to be just about full filter of metal. No spare in BNE, only spare engine was in MEL. Even a ferry flight could not DEPART on 3 engines, so the Crew took it as a ferry to MEL with the engine just idling on take off, once airborne they shut it down, contacted ATC to tell them they had suffered an engine failure and were continuing to MEL on three engines.
The pilots worked out that if worse came to worse they could always divert and still get it safely on the ground somewhere. The worst result was better than the result that they, and the Company, were currently looking at.
Also the pilots (who actually had their bums strapped to the aircraft) backed their experience and judgement, and knew that Chief Pilot ( one level above God) would back them to the hilt based on the actions of a reasonable person.The ground engineer gave his unbiased opinion to the PIC and his gut feeling on the airworthiness of the aircraft. Even if there was no drama, the pilots knew that the CP would kick their arse if they had done something dodgy just to make schedule.
Which brings us back to the airsupport argument, if the operating crew have 'bent' a rule in line with their own definition of airmanship based on the best information at that time, or whether they have 'bent' a rule to appease schedule before safety?
We can all cite examples of stupid 'rules' that do nothing to enhance safety, be it in the cockpit, cabin or ground. And also examples where there are no rules beyond common sense to enforce legitimate safety concerns.
Unfortunately there are no rules that say use common sense and experience to deal with the problem. This would put about three layers of management hacks on to the dole queue.
Airsupport, times have moved on. It may or may not have been dodgy, but the individuals are not entrusted with that responsibilty any more.
Dispatch (engineers) said that aircraft is a bit dodgy we're not that comfortable with it being taken out. The pilot had a bit of a chat with the ground engineer who had dealt with the problem and either said "Okay we go" or the engineer said "It's stuffed" and the pilot said "We aren't going". That was the end of story, the bean counter, the PR person,etc didn't get a look in.
Quote:
We had an Electra many years (decades) ago, here in BNE undergoing a routine scheduled service, one engine was found to be just about full filter of metal. No spare in BNE, only spare engine was in MEL. Even a ferry flight could not DEPART on 3 engines, so the Crew took it as a ferry to MEL with the engine just idling on take off, once airborne they shut it down, contacted ATC to tell them they had suffered an engine failure and were continuing to MEL on three engines.
The pilots worked out that if worse came to worse they could always divert and still get it safely on the ground somewhere. The worst result was better than the result that they, and the Company, were currently looking at.
Also the pilots (who actually had their bums strapped to the aircraft) backed their experience and judgement, and knew that Chief Pilot ( one level above God) would back them to the hilt based on the actions of a reasonable person.The ground engineer gave his unbiased opinion to the PIC and his gut feeling on the airworthiness of the aircraft. Even if there was no drama, the pilots knew that the CP would kick their arse if they had done something dodgy just to make schedule.
Which brings us back to the airsupport argument, if the operating crew have 'bent' a rule in line with their own definition of airmanship based on the best information at that time, or whether they have 'bent' a rule to appease schedule before safety?
We can all cite examples of stupid 'rules' that do nothing to enhance safety, be it in the cockpit, cabin or ground. And also examples where there are no rules beyond common sense to enforce legitimate safety concerns.
Unfortunately there are no rules that say use common sense and experience to deal with the problem. This would put about three layers of management hacks on to the dole queue.
Airsupport, times have moved on. It may or may not have been dodgy, but the individuals are not entrusted with that responsibilty any more.
I hope you are NOT being sarcastic, because that is exactly how it was in my day, well all of my 40 years in the Industry.
The Electra thing was no big deal, empty aircraft on a ferry flight, Crew knew all we knew about the aircraft, and anyway similar aircraft (Orion) does this every day in fact routinely shut down 2 engines and cruise around.
One example that hilights EXACTLY what you are saying is again many years ago now I had a DC9 transiting BNE from SYD heading off to TSV and CNS, while doing the walkround I just was not happy with the way #1 engine looked, the Company wanted it to go obviously and when I discussed it with the Crew, even though I wasn't sure what it was that was worrying me they backed me and we delayed the flight. Turned out the rear mount bolt (one of only three holding the engine in for those that don't know) was broken, could have lost the engine any time.
Yes I honestly believe things were much better AND safer back then.
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Off the topic- Airsupport, you've probably got the worst attitude toward safety I've seen on these forums.
Clark y.
Clark y.
I spent some 40 years in the Industry, mainly in Australia, but also with Aussie registered aircraft operating right throughout the Pacific and a lot of the World including Vietnam, Guyana, Russia and the USA, and all that time NO aircraft I was with and/or looking after was EVER involved in any kind of safety issue or incident.
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We had an Electra many years (decades) ago, here in BNE undergoing a routine scheduled service, one engine was found to be just about 
full filter of metal. No spare in BNE, only spare engine was in MEL. Even a ferry flight could not DEPART on 3 engines, so the Crew took it as a ferry to MEL with the engine just idling on take off, once airborne they shut it down, contacted ATC to tell them they had suffered an engine failure and were continuing to MEL on three engines. 
full filter of metal. No spare in BNE, only spare engine was in MEL. Even a ferry flight could not DEPART on 3 engines, so the Crew took it as a ferry to MEL with the engine just idling on take off, once airborne they shut it down, contacted ATC to tell them they had suffered an engine failure and were continuing to MEL on three engines.
No consideration of the inherent dangers of a 3 engine takeoff?
Got performance data for a 3 engine takeoff?
Know the difference between a VMCA event with reducing power on one engine, as opposed to increasing power on three engines?
No consideration of what if this known-to-be-contaminated-with-chunks-of-metal engine decides to actually catch fire in the process of seizing, even at idle power?
Just because they exercised highly questionable judgement and airmanship on an Electra some decades ago doesn't mean people have to repeat the same mentality on an Airbus.
If you reckon that event made them great operators, think again. I've heard of lots of dumb and appalling examples of airmanship displayed during the 60s and onwards by guys who seemed to think they were pretty much immortal. That one is right up there.
It might have been empty of pax, but that just means there were only 3 (or whatever the Electra crew was) idiots on the plane.
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If you reckon that event made them great operators, think again. I've heard of lots of dumb and appalling examples of airmanship displayed during the 60s and onwards by guys who seemed to think they were pretty much immortal. That one is right up there.
It might have been empty of pax, but that just means there were only 3 (or whatever the Electra crew was) idiots on the plane.
It might have been empty of pax, but that just means there were only 3 (or whatever the Electra crew was) idiots on the plane.
I was all for changing the engine in BNE but they were happy to take it to MEL as it was.
Yes those were the good olde days, sadly they are gone now it seems.
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IF you have a problem with what happened that day, then your problem is with the Pilots NOT me.
1. The pilots, who by virtually any standard exercised very poor judgement in executing an unnecessarily risky takeoff on several counts, when a replacement engine could've been ferried to the plane in situ.
2. Anyone apparently trying to justify this action on a "can-do, will-do, get-the-job-done-at-all-costs" basis.
I was all for changing the engine in BNE but they were happy to take it to MEL as it was.
Yes those were the good olde days, sadly they are gone now it seems. 
Or did they do this so that if another one failed on takeoff they could firewall the one with the known metal contamination? Because as we all know, engines with blocked filters due to metal contamination which have been deemed to require removal from the wing just love suddenly being run up to full power in an emergency situation.
There is absolutely nothing in their decision-making process which makes any sense at all.
Like, seriously, what was going through their minds that day? And why is this "the good olde days"?
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Originally Posted by airsupport
The Electra thing was no big deal, empty aircraft on a ferry flight, Crew knew all we knew about the aircraft, and anyway similar aircraft (Orion) does this every day in fact routinely shut down 2 engines and cruise around......
Yes I honestly believe things were much better AND safer back then.
Yes I honestly believe things were much better AND safer back then.
Ixnay on the three engine Orion take-off-ay. It never happens.
You will no doubt be aware that major Australian based RPT airlines have yet to suffer the loss of a jet airliner, yet lost quite a few prop-driven aircraft and lives back in "the good old days".
The EH was a top selling Holden but it rusted like a bastard, had no seat belts, no airbags, no brakes and no performance. Things were NOT better and NOT safer in "the good old days".
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All these personal attacks on me cannot change history, or make things safer.
I could post some stories about other Pilots back in the good olde days, Pilots that you guys would probably like and sadly relate to, but I would get banned from a Pilot's web site.
Just as an example back in the good olde days, as someone mentioned Electras, early one morning in BNE as an Electra (freighter) was ready to depart BNE for SYD-MEL-SYD-BNE, #3 engine would not start.
I tried to troubleshoot it for a short time then tried to start it myself with no luck, I then tried it (excuse my old memory) in what I think was called the ''null'' position and it started so after confirming that both SYD and MEL had Engineers on duty that were happy to do the same IF needed I handed the aircraft back over to the Crew with #3 and #4 engines running.
Air Freight then decided as it was running late and they wanted the freight back in BNE on time to reshedule it direct to MEL then via SYD to BNE.
NO problems you would think.
Well these Pilots, who no doubt are YOUR heroes certainly NOT mine, refused to go as apparently they were allowed to because of a ''schedule change" because they were playing golf later that day.
I could post some stories about other Pilots back in the good olde days, Pilots that you guys would probably like and sadly relate to, but I would get banned from a Pilot's web site.
Just as an example back in the good olde days, as someone mentioned Electras, early one morning in BNE as an Electra (freighter) was ready to depart BNE for SYD-MEL-SYD-BNE, #3 engine would not start.
I tried to troubleshoot it for a short time then tried to start it myself with no luck, I then tried it (excuse my old memory) in what I think was called the ''null'' position and it started so after confirming that both SYD and MEL had Engineers on duty that were happy to do the same IF needed I handed the aircraft back over to the Crew with #3 and #4 engines running.
Air Freight then decided as it was running late and they wanted the freight back in BNE on time to reshedule it direct to MEL then via SYD to BNE.
NO problems you would think.
Well these Pilots, who no doubt are YOUR heroes certainly NOT mine, refused to go as apparently they were allowed to because of a ''schedule change" because they were playing golf later that day.
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You will no doubt be aware that major Australian based RPT airlines have yet to suffer the loss of a jet airliner, yet lost quite a few prop-driven aircraft and lives back in "the good old days".
The EH was a top selling Holden but it rusted like a bastard, had no seat belts, no airbags, no brakes and no performance. Things were NOT better and NOT safer in "the good old days".
The EH was a top selling Holden but it rusted like a bastard, had no seat belts, no airbags, no brakes and no performance. Things were NOT better and NOT safer in "the good old days".
Funny (odd) you mention cars, I was just thinking about exactly that last night in relation to this thread.
I had an FE Holden back in the good old days, completely rebuilt it, I felt much safer on the roads in that in those days than I do now in a fairly new Commodore. MAYBE safer IF involved in an accident, but the roads are so much busier now and crazy drivers all in a hurry.
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I just have to wonder a little about the pilot that accepted the aircraft and flew it to Singapore. What else did he miss that wasn't up to scratch?
If maintenance couldn't get the panels back in to their correct positions what else did they just jam in to whatever place was convenient?
The dark humoured advice given to me way back that served me well..
You are not being paranoid, they are out to kill you.
If maintenance couldn't get the panels back in to their correct positions what else did they just jam in to whatever place was convenient?
The dark humoured advice given to me way back that served me well..
You are not being paranoid, they are out to kill you.
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I think Airsupport is taking the p i s s.
You had me going for awhile I thiought you were fair dinkum.
Well done
You had me going for awhile I thiought you were fair dinkum.
Well done
IF you bother to read the thread from the start you will see that originally I thought they were talking about a couple of panels in the cabin, which for a ferry flight would be no big deal, not even a little deal.
Now it seems they meant cockpit panels, obviously that is serious, I cannot see how it was even done.
All the rest is 100% true.
Just to add to my last post, I honestly feel the same about aircraft as I said about cars.
I have done so much flying all over the World, probably a lot more than many Pilots here, but I always felt safer in the older aircraft like DC9s and B727s, and even the F27 than in the newer ones like all the Airbuses. Sure the newer ones have much better technology, but IF you are in big trouble I would rather trust a DC9 or 727 to hold together for me than say an A320.
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Yeah, look again I don't mean personal offence here Airsupport and I'm sorry if you have taken any. But I just noticed this bit quoted above which I had previously missed:
That is not correct. It shuts down a single, known, perfectly functioning engine in the cruise to save fuel and increase its low-level loiter capability. The procedure also sets this engine up to be air-started very rapidly, should another engine fail.
They certainly don't takeoff on three. We did windmill taxy starts on 3 engines when I did my training on another iconic 4 engine plane, and even they were fraught with problems and risk (they at various stages were taught, banned, taught, banned, etc).
Honestly, I don't know what they (the Electra crew) were thinking.
While the A320 incident is nowhere near the scale of the Electra one, with our highly procedurally driven cockpits in modern jetliners you have to ask yourself about whether that was a wise or necessary decision. Personally, I would've said "fine, send the paxing ticket to the hotel". I took many risks when I was specifically paid by the Government to do so. But not now.
similar aircraft (Orion) does this every day in fact routinely shut down 2 engines and cruise around......
They certainly don't takeoff on three. We did windmill taxy starts on 3 engines when I did my training on another iconic 4 engine plane, and even they were fraught with problems and risk (they at various stages were taught, banned, taught, banned, etc).
Honestly, I don't know what they (the Electra crew) were thinking.
While the A320 incident is nowhere near the scale of the Electra one, with our highly procedurally driven cockpits in modern jetliners you have to ask yourself about whether that was a wise or necessary decision. Personally, I would've said "fine, send the paxing ticket to the hotel". I took many risks when I was specifically paid by the Government to do so. But not now.
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Yeah, look again I don't mean personal offence here Airsupport and I'm sorry if you have taken any.
I have never been involved in the Military in any way whatever, just I am sure (was sure) I had seen a photo of a US Orion at very low level over water cruising on 2 engines.
Anyway apart from the fact that I didn't fly this Electra, I still cannot see any problem as long as the Crew were happy.
Another way of looking at it is think of the Crew that brought it in the day before, they didn't know they had an engine on its last legs, at least these guys knew and as I said as planned shut it down immediately after take off, ferry flight, just the 3 Crew.
I really can NOT see a problem, as long as the Crew were happy, the Company were happy.
PS........ As I have tried to explain also, I do not agree with that A320 leaving Indonesia now they are saying it was cockpit panels, NO problem with any amount of cabin missing for a ferry.
