Has ATSB gone totally mad?
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Has ATSB gone totally mad?
From a recent ATSB report about an aircraft that did not take off using the centre line of the runway: .
Bombardier DHC-8-315 commenced the take-off roll on runway 01 at Townsville Aerodrome for Cairns, Queensland. During the takeoff, the pilot in command realised that the aircraft was aligned with the left runway edge. The aircraft was manoeuvred to the centre of the runway and the takeoff rejected. It was later determined that the aircraft’s left main wheel had damaged a runway edge light. There were no injuries to the 34 passengers or five crew members and no damage to the aircraft.
The operator did not have procedures to assist the crew to ensure that the aircraft was lined up on the runway centreline in preparation for takeoff.
Does that mean that legally all aircraft from Cessna 150 to Airbus A380 are required to have a "procedure" to assist a pilot to ensure they are properly lined up? Don't pilots have eyes to assist them to line up? Isn't this just normal pilot competency from the very first solo? Does ATSB now require this "procedure" to be published in the company Ops manual.
How much wet nursing are ATSB writers attempting to foist on pilots? Or are the legal eagles in ATSB trying to stamp their authority on Operations Manuals and how bloody ridiculous this all is...
Bombardier DHC-8-315 commenced the take-off roll on runway 01 at Townsville Aerodrome for Cairns, Queensland. During the takeoff, the pilot in command realised that the aircraft was aligned with the left runway edge. The aircraft was manoeuvred to the centre of the runway and the takeoff rejected. It was later determined that the aircraft’s left main wheel had damaged a runway edge light. There were no injuries to the 34 passengers or five crew members and no damage to the aircraft.
The operator did not have procedures to assist the crew to ensure that the aircraft was lined up on the runway centreline in preparation for takeoff.
Does that mean that legally all aircraft from Cessna 150 to Airbus A380 are required to have a "procedure" to assist a pilot to ensure they are properly lined up? Don't pilots have eyes to assist them to line up? Isn't this just normal pilot competency from the very first solo? Does ATSB now require this "procedure" to be published in the company Ops manual.
How much wet nursing are ATSB writers attempting to foist on pilots? Or are the legal eagles in ATSB trying to stamp their authority on Operations Manuals and how bloody ridiculous this all is...
Last edited by Tee Emm; 28th Jan 2011 at 12:12.
OR
The operator did not have procedures to assist the crew to ensure that the aircraft was lined up on the runway centreline in preparation for landing.
OR
The operator did not have procedures to assist the crew to ensure that the aircraft was taxing on the taxiway centreline.
OR
The operator did not have procedures to assist the crew to ensure that the microphone switch was off when not transmitting
OR
The operator did not have procedures to assist the crew to ensure that the gear lever was adequately lubricated before flight.
The operator did not have procedures to assist the crew to ensure that the aircraft was lined up on the runway centreline in preparation for landing.
OR
The operator did not have procedures to assist the crew to ensure that the aircraft was taxing on the taxiway centreline.
OR
The operator did not have procedures to assist the crew to ensure that the microphone switch was off when not transmitting
OR
The operator did not have procedures to assist the crew to ensure that the gear lever was adequately lubricated before flight.
"Does that mean that legally all aircraft from Cessna 150 to Airbus A380 are required to have a "procedure" to assist a pilot to ensure they are properly lined up?"
No. The report stated this was a 'minor safety issue'. The statement was an observation, not a direction.
I just read the report, not too much I can pick to criticise it.
No. The report stated this was a 'minor safety issue'. The statement was an observation, not a direction.
I just read the report, not too much I can pick to criticise it.
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Procedure for ensuring pilots line up with the centre of the runway:
Having received and acknowledged ATC clearance to enter the runway in use, crews must ensure that the runway cleared for use is the same runway as the one to be entered. Visually aquire runway centre line. This can be determined by a centre line marking, or by finding a position equidistant from each edge of the runway. Line up with the centreline, making sure that the aircraft is aimed along the correct runway heading.
Pilots must ensure that the aircraft is not allowed to line up on the runway edge, which may cause damage to runway edge lighting.
There, backsides covered; is that better? The usual consultancy fee is required.
Having received and acknowledged ATC clearance to enter the runway in use, crews must ensure that the runway cleared for use is the same runway as the one to be entered. Visually aquire runway centre line. This can be determined by a centre line marking, or by finding a position equidistant from each edge of the runway. Line up with the centreline, making sure that the aircraft is aimed along the correct runway heading.
Pilots must ensure that the aircraft is not allowed to line up on the runway edge, which may cause damage to runway edge lighting.
There, backsides covered; is that better? The usual consultancy fee is required.
Not withstanding any other regulation, a Pilot in command must not allow an aircraft to commence a take off from a designated runway, unless:
a) The aircraft has a valid take off clearance for that runway, and,
b) the centreline of the aircraft is positioned over the centreline of the runway, and,
c) the heading of the aircraft is within one degree of the designated runway heading.
This is an offence of strict liability. Penalty sixty penalty units or Five years in jail.
a) The aircraft has a valid take off clearance for that runway, and,
b) the centreline of the aircraft is positioned over the centreline of the runway, and,
c) the heading of the aircraft is within one degree of the designated runway heading.
This is an offence of strict liability. Penalty sixty penalty units or Five years in jail.
the heading of the aircraft is within one degree of the designated runway heading.
Guess I need a few hundred years in jail. Where did u get that tripe from Smellslikefish?
After this incident, the operator issued a change in procedure for the FO to call 'on centre line' prior to commencing the take off roll. What I find amusing is that I'm pretty sure the crew thought they were on centre line before they commenced the take off roll so even if that procedure had've been in place at the time of this incident, wouldn't they have called 'on centre line' anyway?
These reactive procedures really aren't thought out prior to issue. All is does is add another thing for crews to get wrong in cyclics. Any competent pilot with good situational awareness is going to line up properly on the centre line and check it prior to opening up the levers.
These reactive procedures really aren't thought out prior to issue. All is does is add another thing for crews to get wrong in cyclics. Any competent pilot with good situational awareness is going to line up properly on the centre line and check it prior to opening up the levers.
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Originally Posted by Tee Emm
Isn't this just normal pilot competency from the very first solo?
Just wait, CASA will be onto this quick as a flash. Hope all your ops manuals have a section dedicated to lining your acft up on the centreline!
Last edited by bankrunner; 28th Jan 2011 at 23:02. Reason: Silly typos
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A pilot at my old operator did the same thing around the same time on the exact runway in a 404. Happens I guess.
Interesting that he reported the flap overspeed but not the RTO (well that's how I read it).
I also know he got the chop by Sunnies over the incident. Fair?
Interesting that he reported the flap overspeed but not the RTO (well that's how I read it).
I also know he got the chop by Sunnies over the incident. Fair?
"Does that mean that legally all aircraft from Cessna 150 to Airbus A380 are required to have a "procedure" to assist a pilot to ensure they are properly lined up?"
No. The report stated this was a 'minor safety issue'. The statement was an observation, not a direction.
I just read the report, not too much I can pick to criticise it.
No. The report stated this was a 'minor safety issue'. The statement was an observation, not a direction.
I just read the report, not too much I can pick to criticise it.
Either way, this is totally over the top. A written policy to stop this sort of thing? How are we now to do a rolling takeoff without compromising the RTOW?
How about the training departments/Regulators ensure that pilots are trained properly so that this sort of thing doesn't happen instead of making yet another rule?
Last edited by Capn Bloggs; 28th Jan 2011 at 23:51.
I presume the taps weren't opened unless the crew thought they were on the CL.
The "procedure" for lining up had been followed, but the crew member made an error, probably a perceptual error.
WHY did the crew member make that error? THAT is the question.
The ATSB acknowledges some criticism that their investigation model focusses on "organisational" factors, to the detriment of the acts and omissions of the individual. If the addition of another fing procedure is the best recommendation/observation that comes out of this report then I suggest the criticism is valid. 
The "procedure" for lining up had been followed, but the crew member made an error, probably a perceptual error.
WHY did the crew member make that error? THAT is the question.
The ATSB acknowledges some criticism that their investigation model focusses on "organisational" factors, to the detriment of the acts and omissions of the individual. If the addition of another f
ing procedure is the best recommendation/observation that comes out of this report then I suggest the criticism is valid.
The question was "legally" does every operator have to have a procedure based on the findings of this investigation. My opinion was no. The reason: the ATSB is an independent investigative agency. Industry and government are responsible for policy change, not the ATSB. The ATSB makes findings. My take on the findings in this case were that crew distraction, weather, night, and the unusual arrangement of the runway having Ordinance Loading Areas and associated lighting at the threshold, were the major causal factors, and that not having a procedure was listed as a 'Minor safety issue'. The aircraft operator made a decision implement changes to procedures based on the incident, but that does not mean that all operators are legally required to do so.
CX has a requirement to verbalise the RWY and intersection just before you cross the holding point and we are not allowed to cross the red lights until they are switched off even if cleared to line up.
In LWMO we will also tune the ILS and check centered when lined up.
Maybe a thread drift here but It's the lights on taxiways you have to watch out for, wrongly identifying sideline blue with centerline GREEN is a biggy!!
EDITED BY ME. Oops lah
Apron B and C heading east in Bali at night is an example to watch, it has sideline blue BUT only on the south side!!! In the rain at night you have to be very careful not to track the lights under the nose!!
In LWMO we will also tune the ILS and check centered when lined up.
Maybe a thread drift here but It's the lights on taxiways you have to watch out for, wrongly identifying sideline blue with centerline GREEN is a biggy!!
EDITED BY ME. Oops lah
Apron B and C heading east in Bali at night is an example to watch, it has sideline blue BUT only on the south side!!! In the rain at night you have to be very careful not to track the lights under the nose!!
Last edited by nitpicker330; 30th Jan 2011 at 10:42.
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So was this at night in low visibility? If at night, does the runway have centreline lights? I can't imagine any pilot lining up on the runway edge line during the day.
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Maybe a thread drift here but It's the lights on taxiways you have to watch out for, wrongly identifying sideline blue with centerline white is a biggy!!
Apron B and C heading east in Bali at night is an example to watch, it has sideline blue BUT only on the south side!!! In the rain at night you have to be very careful not to track the lights under the nose!!
Last edited by Red Jet; 30th Jan 2011 at 00:05.
Townsville has ORP's either side of the runway threshold, I doubt these are lit. They effectively double the width of the runway at the threshold. It would be easy to mistake them for being on the runway, particularly as the whole aircraft would be on a sealed surface for the first 100 or so meters.