Jetstar response to: How Australian is Jetstar?
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Terra firma
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cadet Pilots are a proven pathway around the world, and they offered tailored training and a consistent set of operational standards.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Brisvegas
Age: 46
Posts: 309
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
gee I flew on QF the other day [morning flight BNE-SYD] and two of the FA's looked like they just got out of bed with no time to spare [grumpy as well]...
What the hell is your point TBM? If it was a morning flight they probably did just get out of bed.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Roguesville, cloud cuckooland
Posts: 1,197
Likes: 0
Received 16 Likes
on
5 Posts
The Jetstar response is a classic case of dissembling.
Their quote of
is simple misdirection. That is not what was said. PVDH's article referred to
. If you believe the Jetstar response then these cadets are going to have 1000 hours of flying followed by close supervision.
That is not true. They will have 200 hours of flying when they first fly with paying passengers. The other 800 hours comes from ground training as part of the course and counts for virtually nothing in the real world.
It should read, "these pilots will have 200 hours flying followed by close supervision of training captains on revenue flights."
Their quote of
So it is simply not representative or meaningful to imply ab initio pilots receive “200 hours training”.
200 hours of flying
That is not true. They will have 200 hours of flying when they first fly with paying passengers. The other 800 hours comes from ground training as part of the course and counts for virtually nothing in the real world.
It should read, "these pilots will have 200 hours flying followed by close supervision of training captains on revenue flights."
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: the world
Posts: 233
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cadets are here to stay. Get over the angst and deal with the fact.
Low time trainees have been flying revenue trips for airlines for many years all over the world.
Not only in 'Third-world' countries, unless you think that the UK belongs in that category.
Actually.........they play good cricket these days, so maybe they are an Asian country after all.
Low time trainees have been flying revenue trips for airlines for many years all over the world.
Not only in 'Third-world' countries, unless you think that the UK belongs in that category.
Actually.........they play good cricket these days, so maybe they are an Asian country after all.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: australia
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AH,
You miss the point. Companies can make these decisions but it is up to consumers as to whether they accept them.
Same issue re cadets. If consumers have a choice they should stand up and be counted as long as they are prepared to pay for the experience.
Where is JB with this, there is an obvious marketing point here....we only employ pilots with minimum 2000 hours and I reckon game could be over, right or wrong.
Differentiation from the competition.
Forget CASA because if they were interested, they would be in this debate already.
You miss the point. Companies can make these decisions but it is up to consumers as to whether they accept them.
Same issue re cadets. If consumers have a choice they should stand up and be counted as long as they are prepared to pay for the experience.
Where is JB with this, there is an obvious marketing point here....we only employ pilots with minimum 2000 hours and I reckon game could be over, right or wrong.
Differentiation from the competition.
Forget CASA because if they were interested, they would be in this debate already.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Alabama, then Wyoming, then Idaho and now staying with Kharon on Styx houseboat
Age: 61
Posts: 1,437
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Forget CASA because if they were interested, they would be in this debate already.
Now don't PM me with hate mail as I also think the current tolerability is dangerous, at least the FAA could smell the writing on the wall and introduced changes. But as for CASA, well technically as long as the airline isn't breaking the law then they wont get involved.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: australia
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gobbledock,
Fair point but bureaucrats have a responsibility for policy and cannot always hide behind the rules. Take APRA re banking for example, they take heed of offshore (eg Basel Committee) and then adapt by reference to other international regulators and the actual experience plus the sleep well at night test.
Why doesn't someone ask them why they are smarter than FAA and see what they have to say. Suspect the silence would be deafening.
Then we get back to Senate and there is no reason why they cannot/should not ask the same question.
The fact that there is bad legislation/regulation should not blind us from the bleeding obvious or allow those responsible to shirk their responsibility.
This is a pivotal point for the industry and if those involved do not stand to be counted then consumers should do so.
Fair point but bureaucrats have a responsibility for policy and cannot always hide behind the rules. Take APRA re banking for example, they take heed of offshore (eg Basel Committee) and then adapt by reference to other international regulators and the actual experience plus the sleep well at night test.
Why doesn't someone ask them why they are smarter than FAA and see what they have to say. Suspect the silence would be deafening.
Then we get back to Senate and there is no reason why they cannot/should not ask the same question.
The fact that there is bad legislation/regulation should not blind us from the bleeding obvious or allow those responsible to shirk their responsibility.
This is a pivotal point for the industry and if those involved do not stand to be counted then consumers should do so.
They CASA)are responsible for VH registered aircraft wherever they are.
Not quite true, I am afraid. the Civil Aviation Act 1988 makes provision for Australia to sign an 83bis agreement, in this case meaning that VH- aircraft could be based in and operate under CAAS rules ------ if there is an 83bis agreement in place between AU and SIN to cover that aircraft.
This is a common ICAO based arrangement.
Equally, validating non- AU pilot licenses to crew the aeroplanes (whether in AU or SIN) represents no obstacle.
Tootle pip!!
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Singapore/Beijing
Age: 64
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Let's export Westaway's position to the third world...
Here is an idea. If Onestar are so intent on exporting Australian jobs to the ghettos of the world then why don't they start with the mouthpiece in a suit- Westaway.
There are thousands of media graduates in India who would happily do his vacuous job for 10% of what the board is paying this rent a voice.
There are thousands of media graduates in India who would happily do his vacuous job for 10% of what the board is paying this rent a voice.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Lisbon
Posts: 995
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
smilingknife, excellent idea. Why don't they outsource all senior management roles to India ? Or give senior roles to uni graduates or Year 12 leavers, that way they keep an even flow throughout the organisation. Senior roles should also be salaried at third world rates as well. I mean if a Pilot doesnt need a lot of experience or hours under his belt then neither does a senior manager, after all, how hard can it be to drink Mochacino's while writing your own bottomless pay cheque ?
Is it automatically assumed that someone from a "third world country" is only capable of third rate work? My father-in-law recently gained a crew of Phillipino welders in the country Vic sheet metal works he is employed at. After initial scepticism, he acknowledges they do an excellent job, are happy to come to work, friendly, and pleasantly lacking in less desireable Australian work ethics.
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Posts: 270
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have been in India quite often the past few months, and the graduate team members of my company's partner in India are no more or less capable than the average Singaporean or Australian graduate. And they only earn US$500 a month. That's pretty scary isn't it. They write well, present well, have excellent research and communications skills.....
Generally people in poorer countries have more drive and hunger to break out of the poverty trap. When Singapore was poor 40 years ago, my parents' generation had that huge drive to get educated and work hard to break out of the poverty cycle. Most of my parents' friends born from 1945 to 1960 had terribly impoverished childhoods, but nearly all of them today lead a very Western-level middle class lifestyle.
Then you have the people born in the 1970s and 80s who complain about foreigners stealing their jobs and why do they have to work so hard etc. Hey in SIN you have 6 days of child care leave for each kid under 12 (for women workers) and 6 days for fathers (flat) on top of 20 days of leave.
Not that I would personally complain about it if I had kids, but as my father said, when I was growing up and I was ill, he just took it out of his annual leave. These days parents get "extra" days of leave to tend to their children.
On a personal level it is great of course. But there are always those Indians who are as capable, earning $500 a month. So what would an MNC do?
Unfortunately, rapid economic development tends to give a society a huge sense of entitlement. (And I am guilty of it too).
Generally people in poorer countries have more drive and hunger to break out of the poverty trap. When Singapore was poor 40 years ago, my parents' generation had that huge drive to get educated and work hard to break out of the poverty cycle. Most of my parents' friends born from 1945 to 1960 had terribly impoverished childhoods, but nearly all of them today lead a very Western-level middle class lifestyle.
Then you have the people born in the 1970s and 80s who complain about foreigners stealing their jobs and why do they have to work so hard etc. Hey in SIN you have 6 days of child care leave for each kid under 12 (for women workers) and 6 days for fathers (flat) on top of 20 days of leave.
Not that I would personally complain about it if I had kids, but as my father said, when I was growing up and I was ill, he just took it out of his annual leave. These days parents get "extra" days of leave to tend to their children.
On a personal level it is great of course. But there are always those Indians who are as capable, earning $500 a month. So what would an MNC do?
Unfortunately, rapid economic development tends to give a society a huge sense of entitlement. (And I am guilty of it too).
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Terra firma
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But there are always those Indians who are as capable, earning $500 a month. So what would an MNC do?
Testing India's graduates: The engineering gap | The Economist
According to the company, only 4.2% of India’s engineers are fit to work in a software product firm, and just 17.8% are employable by an IT services company, even with up to six months’ training. A larger share could cope in business-process outsourcing (call centres and the like). These findings are even gloomier than the 25% figure for employability that has been bandied about since 2005, when McKinsey released the results of a survey of international companies.
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Australia
Age: 37
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You can beat on your chests all you like about this Cadet Program but I think its here to stay....
Word is an ACP Program is starting in March.....
2 Pilots in the class.....
What to do, what to do????
Word is an ACP Program is starting in March.....
2 Pilots in the class.....
What to do, what to do????
What to do!
I don't know.
If you think the prospect of earning $50K P/A after drowning yourself in a $200K debt, and having that meagre income slashed in half due to salary sacrifice, all the while being entrusted with the controls of a domestic airliner, is a viable proposition, then go right ahead. That is of course if there is a job waiting for you at the end of training? If not, then maybe you can beat your own chest about something.
We all have start somewhere, but I'm sorry my friend, the Jetstar Cadetship is the most shortsighted, cynical and evil scheme ever to come from the minds of the too clever by half been-counter brigade.
Join it at your peril
If you think the prospect of earning $50K P/A after drowning yourself in a $200K debt, and having that meagre income slashed in half due to salary sacrifice, all the while being entrusted with the controls of a domestic airliner, is a viable proposition, then go right ahead.
That is of course if there is a job waiting for you at the end of training? If not, then maybe you can beat your own chest about something.We all have start somewhere, but I'm sorry my friend, the Jetstar Cadetship is the most shortsighted, cynical and evil scheme ever to come from the minds of the too clever by half been-counter brigade.
Join it at your peril
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 767
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A course of 2!!
Does anybody know how many cadets have been accepted onto the course so far? Six months in it seems a long way of the 70 per year in the initial press release. Maybe the 70 includes the Asian Cadets who get a course with substantially more content for significantly less dollars!!
Imho anyone who starts a cadet course prior to the outcome of the senate enquiry seriously puts into question whether their attitude to risk is appropriate to become a professional pilot.
Ps Krusty. I understand there is no salary sacrifice for the repayment of training costs. Repayments are made after tax!!
From the JQ cadetship FAQ section of the CTC website
Does anybody know how many cadets have been accepted onto the course so far? Six months in it seems a long way of the 70 per year in the initial press release. Maybe the 70 includes the Asian Cadets who get a course with substantially more content for significantly less dollars!!
Imho anyone who starts a cadet course prior to the outcome of the senate enquiry seriously puts into question whether their attitude to risk is appropriate to become a professional pilot.
Ps Krusty. I understand there is no salary sacrifice for the repayment of training costs. Repayments are made after tax!!
From the JQ cadetship FAQ section of the CTC website
How do I pay back the Jet Star loan?
You will pay back the loan to Jet Star over a period of 6 years. This repayment will be paid out of your post tax salary.
You will pay back the loan to Jet Star over a period of 6 years. This repayment will be paid out of your post tax salary.
Last edited by The Kelpie; 3rd Jan 2011 at 04:43.
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Well it's an IRS nowdays, but the AHRS were fun.
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its been happening in the northern hemisphere for a while. Ten year ago I flew for a UK operator and a lot of the F/O's were CAP 509 (think that was the number) which meant they could get their CPL's at 150 hours. I didn't fly with F/O's that low but flew with a couple around the 200 mark. They flew OK considering their experience.
It was a tough road for them, they signed on and the company set up a bank loan for their type ratings that was in the individuals name and then left them with the repayments. Some only stayed a year and moved on to larger aircraft and I heard stories of guys paying two or more loans off while still getting paid stuff all. Was it worth it?
It wasn't a cadetship as such, but it was certainly a way of filling the RHS at a cheap cost and guys who had the appropriate coin got a good kickstart to their careers. Back then the UK was short of drivers. I have heard that some are now jet commanders now days and doing quite well.
Its certainly a different story in Aussie where there is, and always has been, a distinct bottleneck between GA and the airlines. This is the reason that you should be fighting this one, unless you all want to stay in GA for the rest of your lives.
It was a tough road for them, they signed on and the company set up a bank loan for their type ratings that was in the individuals name and then left them with the repayments. Some only stayed a year and moved on to larger aircraft and I heard stories of guys paying two or more loans off while still getting paid stuff all. Was it worth it?
It wasn't a cadetship as such, but it was certainly a way of filling the RHS at a cheap cost and guys who had the appropriate coin got a good kickstart to their careers. Back then the UK was short of drivers. I have heard that some are now jet commanders now days and doing quite well.
Its certainly a different story in Aussie where there is, and always has been, a distinct bottleneck between GA and the airlines. This is the reason that you should be fighting this one, unless you all want to stay in GA for the rest of your lives.