Qantas~The Loss Of Invincibility
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Having your meal 'rimmed' was to have it run around the 'rim' of the loo by the F/A.
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Can't help you there mate, I am famous for falling asleep in movies, in fact the missus has banned me from going any more, due to my habit of nodding off. (I have never got quite used to the idea of paying to see someone pretending to be someone else).
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Gobbledock, you are not wrong, just googled it, blimey, perhaps another word needs to be found. Anyway it made a couple of tech crew blokes very ill, in fact one S/O was on the critical list for a few days. Naturally pilots from all airlines were outraged, and the offending cabin crew started to face the possibility of manslaughter charges had that S/O died. Needless to say a truce was called but there was a lot of argy bargy at every chance for some time to come, in fact there was a famous fight on a crew bus, between a F/O and a FSD/CSM. It started as a verbal, but soon ended up with the both trying to beat the living cr$p out of each other, sadly for both, the Chief Pilot of the day happened to be on the bus,( he had hitched a ride) and both were stood down, (but both were reinstated later). I think we were a little less politically correct in those days.
short flights long nights
slight thread drift I know...but rimmed food!!!..I think I may well be sick
The strike in the early eighties was a dispute by cabin crew over the galleys in the SP 747 and yes they were supported by other unions on the base
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Perhaps you are correct Ken, but there was also a galley issue, of that I am sure, and you are quite right about the fight between the boys and girls,in fact one girls car did not have one wheel on her return to the carpark after working. However we must not take over their postings about problems of old, those days are over, and belting each other up over disputes is now over. (But not nearly as much fun), all to serious these days.
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Anyway it made a couple of tech crew blokes very ill, in fact one S/O was on the critical list for a few days.
Sorry to drift on this, but it caught my attention and I'm now morbidly curious. In any case, it was a frightful thing to do to someone, particularly if they were responsible for the safe handling of an aircraft.
BTW, if you've been googling that word you may have found a few movies you won't sleep through. I only hope your computer is in a secluded part of the house
!
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My memory was the bloke was diagnosed with a bug called samonella which is pretty serious, which is picked up by contaminated food, he was up the track, ran out of fluids, fainted, hit his head on the wash basin, when he came to, rang his skipper, who got the quack, and into hospital he went. His condition went down hill, and there was much concern. I don't want to start another C/C Tech crew crew thing here, this was in the 80's, AIDS was having a impact, and there was much stress, some died (including a couple of Tech Crew) and it was a very sensitive subject. There were some C/C who were willing to say "rimming" went on as it disgusted them, and as far as I know the S/O was nothing more than a innocent victim. There were more. It caused a lot of grief between the pilots and cabin crew, and as most of both were innocent, it was quite silly looking back on it now, just shows best to say nothing, you just don't know where it leads.
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Are airlines a good investment ??
The below statement was from mid 2010, penned by Nouriel Roubini. He is a switched on economist who seems to get things right more often than not. Worth a read for those about to sink a chunk of change into any airline.
Where Roubini is concerned, the great recession has some way to run.
"The crisis is not over; we are just at the next stage. This is where we move from a private to a public debt problem," he says, his speech the mongrel drawl of a man who was born in Turkey to Iranian parents, raised in Israel and Italy and lives in New York. "We socialised part of the private losses by bailing out financial institutions and providing fiscal stimulus to avoid the great recession from turning into a depression. But rising public debt is never a free lunch, eventually you have to pay for it."
As eurozone leaders panic and markets continue to dive, Roubini believes Greece will prove to be just the first of a series of countries standing on the brink.
"We have to start to worry about the solvency of governments. What is happening today in Greece is the tip of the iceberg of rising sovereign debt problems in the eurozone, in the UK, in Japan and in the US. This... is going to be the next issue in the global financial crisis."
It already is. And Roubini claims to have foreseen it as far back as 2006.
"I was writing about the PIGS [Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain] six to nine months before everyone else, I was worried about the future of the monetary union back in 2006," he says. "At the World Economic Forum I outraged a policy official by suggesting the monetary union might break up."
Roubini has sandwiched a visit to the The Daily Telegraph's offices between a private meeting with Bank of England Governor Mervyn King – "I regularly meet with policy makers. I don't know if it's even worth mentioning" – and a talk at the London School of Economics. I ask him if I can see his LSE speech.
"I haven't written one. I never prepare a speech, I don't even have notes. I usually just speak out of my own thoughts; stream of consciousness."
It's a manner he adopts when we meet. Looking over my shoulder, declining eye contact, he moves seamlessly between what he describes as the economist's usual suspects – "the US, eurozone, Japan, China, emerging markets, inflation, deflation, markets" – as he must when teaching his 400 students in New York.
The prognosis for all the suspects save China and the emerging markets is grim, little wonder given the backdrop of a 3.8pc drop in the FTSE last week and panic among investors spooked by German chancellor Angela Merkel's short-selling ban. The ban has been dismissed as fiddling while Rome, or rather the eurozone, burns.
Roubini believes Greece's problems will see the country forced to restructure its debt and raises the longer term prospect of a breakdown of the union with the potential exits of Greece, Spain and Portugal.
Could it survive such a blow? "Well you could think of a world where there is a eurozone with only a core of really strong economies around Germany," he says. "But the process that would lead to one or more countries leaving the union would be so disruptive that the euro as a major reserve currency would be severely damaged."
Like many economists, Roubini does not talk in absolute predictions. It is all about what could happen in worse case scenarios.
But he argues they are only becoming more likely under current political leadership, the UK's new Conservative-Liberal coalition included. "I am worried about the hung parliament. Whenever you have divided, weak or multi-party governments, budget deficits tend to be higher. It is harder to make the necessary sacrifices."
He dismisses the Ł6bn of cuts announced by the coalition as "small compared to what is needed", but rejects the idea that the UK is worse off than many of its peers.
"In the US there is a lack of bipartisanship between Democrats and Republicans, in Germany Merkel has just lost the majority in her legislature, in Japan you have a weak and ineffective government, in Greece you have riots and strikes," he says. "The point is that a lot of sacrifices will have to be made in these countries but many of the governments are weak or divided. It is that political strain that markets are worried about. The view is: you can announce anything, we'll see whether you're going to implement it."
This, he explains, is the ultimate challenge facing governments.
"If you're pushing through austerity while there is growth that's one thing, but if you're pushing it through while the recession is deepening, politically that is harder to sell. And the eurozone doesn't just need fiscal consolidation but also structural reform to increase productivity and restore competitiveness," he says.
Germany is the blueprint, Roubini points out, but "it took a decade for them to see the benefits of structural reform and corporate restructuring".
"If Spain and Portugal start today, you'll see the short-term cost without the long-term benefit and they might run out of political time," he says. "That's why I worry about several eurozone members having to restructure their debt, or deciding that the benefits of staying in the monetary union are less than the cost of it."
The prognosis for the UK is, at least, a little less alarming. An independent currency gives it a few more levers to pull – quantitative easing means default is unlikely to be an issue. But that comes with its own challenges.
"Eventually inflation will go up and that erodes the real value of public debt," Roubini says. "In that scenario the value of the pound will fall sharply. It could even become disorderly and that could damage the economy, the financial markets and also the role of the pound as a reserve currency."
Yet another challenge for Government then. Whether the coalition can live up to it remains to be seen. And whether it thinks it has to.
Roubini is adamant that the great recession is not over. But a temporary economic pick-up, which would convince governments that reform is unnecessary, could bring its own problems.
"People asked me why I saw there was a bubble and my question was why others didn't. During the bubble everybody was benefiting and losing a sense of reality," he says. "And now, since there is the beginning of economic recovery – however bumpy that might be – in some sense people are already starting to forget what happened two years ago. Banks are going back to business as usual and bonuses are back to levels that are outrageous by any standards. There is actually a backlash against even moderate reforms that governments are trying to pass."
Reform, Roubini insists, is necessary, recovery or not. "We are still in the middle of this crisis and there is more trouble ahead of us, even if there is a recovery. During the great depression the economy contracted between 1929 and 1933, there was the beginning of a recovery, but then a second recession from 1937 to 1939. If you don't address the issues, you risk having a double-dip recession and one which is at least as severe as the first one."
Roubini has built his reputation on such forecasts. So, given the real reputation builder was forecasting the crisis, has he been one of the few to enjoy the troubled times of the past few years?
"We are witnessing the worst global economic crisis in the last 60 to 70 years and for an economist that offers an opportunity," he says. "So it has been interesting, but the damage financially and economically has been so severe and so many people have suffered. Anybody involved has to bear that in mind."
Where Roubini is concerned, the great recession has some way to run.
"The crisis is not over; we are just at the next stage. This is where we move from a private to a public debt problem," he says, his speech the mongrel drawl of a man who was born in Turkey to Iranian parents, raised in Israel and Italy and lives in New York. "We socialised part of the private losses by bailing out financial institutions and providing fiscal stimulus to avoid the great recession from turning into a depression. But rising public debt is never a free lunch, eventually you have to pay for it."
As eurozone leaders panic and markets continue to dive, Roubini believes Greece will prove to be just the first of a series of countries standing on the brink.
"We have to start to worry about the solvency of governments. What is happening today in Greece is the tip of the iceberg of rising sovereign debt problems in the eurozone, in the UK, in Japan and in the US. This... is going to be the next issue in the global financial crisis."
It already is. And Roubini claims to have foreseen it as far back as 2006.
"I was writing about the PIGS [Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain] six to nine months before everyone else, I was worried about the future of the monetary union back in 2006," he says. "At the World Economic Forum I outraged a policy official by suggesting the monetary union might break up."
Roubini has sandwiched a visit to the The Daily Telegraph's offices between a private meeting with Bank of England Governor Mervyn King – "I regularly meet with policy makers. I don't know if it's even worth mentioning" – and a talk at the London School of Economics. I ask him if I can see his LSE speech.
"I haven't written one. I never prepare a speech, I don't even have notes. I usually just speak out of my own thoughts; stream of consciousness."
It's a manner he adopts when we meet. Looking over my shoulder, declining eye contact, he moves seamlessly between what he describes as the economist's usual suspects – "the US, eurozone, Japan, China, emerging markets, inflation, deflation, markets" – as he must when teaching his 400 students in New York.
The prognosis for all the suspects save China and the emerging markets is grim, little wonder given the backdrop of a 3.8pc drop in the FTSE last week and panic among investors spooked by German chancellor Angela Merkel's short-selling ban. The ban has been dismissed as fiddling while Rome, or rather the eurozone, burns.
Roubini believes Greece's problems will see the country forced to restructure its debt and raises the longer term prospect of a breakdown of the union with the potential exits of Greece, Spain and Portugal.
Could it survive such a blow? "Well you could think of a world where there is a eurozone with only a core of really strong economies around Germany," he says. "But the process that would lead to one or more countries leaving the union would be so disruptive that the euro as a major reserve currency would be severely damaged."
Like many economists, Roubini does not talk in absolute predictions. It is all about what could happen in worse case scenarios.
But he argues they are only becoming more likely under current political leadership, the UK's new Conservative-Liberal coalition included. "I am worried about the hung parliament. Whenever you have divided, weak or multi-party governments, budget deficits tend to be higher. It is harder to make the necessary sacrifices."
He dismisses the Ł6bn of cuts announced by the coalition as "small compared to what is needed", but rejects the idea that the UK is worse off than many of its peers.
"In the US there is a lack of bipartisanship between Democrats and Republicans, in Germany Merkel has just lost the majority in her legislature, in Japan you have a weak and ineffective government, in Greece you have riots and strikes," he says. "The point is that a lot of sacrifices will have to be made in these countries but many of the governments are weak or divided. It is that political strain that markets are worried about. The view is: you can announce anything, we'll see whether you're going to implement it."
This, he explains, is the ultimate challenge facing governments.
"If you're pushing through austerity while there is growth that's one thing, but if you're pushing it through while the recession is deepening, politically that is harder to sell. And the eurozone doesn't just need fiscal consolidation but also structural reform to increase productivity and restore competitiveness," he says.
Germany is the blueprint, Roubini points out, but "it took a decade for them to see the benefits of structural reform and corporate restructuring".
"If Spain and Portugal start today, you'll see the short-term cost without the long-term benefit and they might run out of political time," he says. "That's why I worry about several eurozone members having to restructure their debt, or deciding that the benefits of staying in the monetary union are less than the cost of it."
The prognosis for the UK is, at least, a little less alarming. An independent currency gives it a few more levers to pull – quantitative easing means default is unlikely to be an issue. But that comes with its own challenges.
"Eventually inflation will go up and that erodes the real value of public debt," Roubini says. "In that scenario the value of the pound will fall sharply. It could even become disorderly and that could damage the economy, the financial markets and also the role of the pound as a reserve currency."
Yet another challenge for Government then. Whether the coalition can live up to it remains to be seen. And whether it thinks it has to.
Roubini is adamant that the great recession is not over. But a temporary economic pick-up, which would convince governments that reform is unnecessary, could bring its own problems.
"People asked me why I saw there was a bubble and my question was why others didn't. During the bubble everybody was benefiting and losing a sense of reality," he says. "And now, since there is the beginning of economic recovery – however bumpy that might be – in some sense people are already starting to forget what happened two years ago. Banks are going back to business as usual and bonuses are back to levels that are outrageous by any standards. There is actually a backlash against even moderate reforms that governments are trying to pass."
Reform, Roubini insists, is necessary, recovery or not. "We are still in the middle of this crisis and there is more trouble ahead of us, even if there is a recovery. During the great depression the economy contracted between 1929 and 1933, there was the beginning of a recovery, but then a second recession from 1937 to 1939. If you don't address the issues, you risk having a double-dip recession and one which is at least as severe as the first one."
Roubini has built his reputation on such forecasts. So, given the real reputation builder was forecasting the crisis, has he been one of the few to enjoy the troubled times of the past few years?
"We are witnessing the worst global economic crisis in the last 60 to 70 years and for an economist that offers an opportunity," he says. "So it has been interesting, but the damage financially and economically has been so severe and so many people have suffered. Anybody involved has to bear that in mind."
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Re: rimming of food
TG
It all comes down to the old truth which my mother told me years ago 'You should never p*ss off the people who serve your food'
Not that I would ever condone it, but I come from a 5 star dining background.. never, EVER be rude waitstaff in a restaurant (or cabin crew on an aircraft for that matter) They control it all
Again, I would never condone, or do it, but it still goes on today (in both restaurants and in the air).
You would be very surprised what happens to your food when you 'go-off' at a waiter, even in a 5 star dining restaurant !!
It all comes down to the old truth which my mother told me years ago 'You should never p*ss off the people who serve your food'
Not that I would ever condone it, but I come from a 5 star dining background.. never, EVER be rude waitstaff in a restaurant (or cabin crew on an aircraft for that matter) They control it all
Again, I would never condone, or do it, but it still goes on today (in both restaurants and in the air).
You would be very surprised what happens to your food when you 'go-off' at a waiter, even in a 5 star dining restaurant !!
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Tidbinbilla,You have changed your 'image' somewhat ! No more 'victim of a bored god' and you now include smiley faces in your posts !!
What's doing ? You drinking too many Xmas largies, win lotto, jag a CEO role with a major airline or perhaps 'got lucky' with triplets ???
Please explain......
What's doing ? You drinking too many Xmas largies, win lotto, jag a CEO role with a major airline or perhaps 'got lucky' with triplets ???
Please explain......
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Cactusbutt, you have me confused with the straighter (and more educated/level-headed) part of the act, Tailwheel.
I'm as t-witter and bisted as the next bloke. But I keep getting my wucking mords fuddled this time of year. Perhaps I should lay off the Christmas Cheer a little......
(Can I still say CHRISTMAS HCEER without being politically incorrect?)
Of course we can! Happy new year all!! *HIC!!*
I'm as t-witter and bisted as the next bloke. But I keep getting my wucking mords fuddled this time of year. Perhaps I should lay off the Christmas Cheer a little......
(Can I still say CHRISTMAS HCEER without being politically incorrect?)
Of course we can! Happy new year all!!
*HIC!!*
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Cactusbutt, you have me confused with the straighter (and more educated/level-headed) part of the act, Tailwheel.
(Can I still say CHRISTMAS HCEER without being politically incorrect?)
Not invincible, just lucky
Back on thread, and Happy New Year to All.
IMO Qantas is more lucky than invincible; just read recent ASTB report on OJM “Electrical Event” in Jan 2008 or report on VH-OJH Bangkok overrun accident in 1999. So why does everyone bang on about the airline’s safety record?
Statistically Qantas is no safer than Southwest, poster child of the low cost carriers. Southwest has flown for 38 years and like Qantas has never killed a pax on a jet. But Southwest operates four times as many A/C (550 vs 132) and seven times as many flights as Qantas. Admittedly in 2005 Southwest killed a single person in a car when flight 1248 overran on to a highway, but equally Qantas has had on-ground fatalities including a pax fall in Feb 2009 and I recollect a galley accident c. 1992.
IMO Qantas is more lucky than invincible; just read recent ASTB report on OJM “Electrical Event” in Jan 2008 or report on VH-OJH Bangkok overrun accident in 1999. So why does everyone bang on about the airline’s safety record?
Statistically Qantas is no safer than Southwest, poster child of the low cost carriers. Southwest has flown for 38 years and like Qantas has never killed a pax on a jet. But Southwest operates four times as many A/C (550 vs 132) and seven times as many flights as Qantas. Admittedly in 2005 Southwest killed a single person in a car when flight 1248 overran on to a highway, but equally Qantas has had on-ground fatalities including a pax fall in Feb 2009 and I recollect a galley accident c. 1992.
Last edited by ozaub; 31st Dec 2010 at 05:02. Reason: tidy up text
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Ozaub, the answer to all your questions is in Nuts! - The story of Southwest. Virtually every LCC does everything the OPPOSITE of what makes Southwest the probably the best airline ever.
The book is from $0.01 (plus postage) on Amazon. I cannot recommend highly enough that as many airline employees as purchase, read & share this book with colleges.
Things don't need to be done they way they are. The current crop of managers can't even lift the recipe from the HowTo manual that is Nuts! Of course, the secret to Southwest is its employee's & a management that acknowledges & rewards as such. Instead we get a group of industrial Neanderthals hell bent on creating empires & short term bonuses. It will end in tears unless we take control back.
Read the book.
The book is from $0.01 (plus postage) on Amazon. I cannot recommend highly enough that as many airline employees as purchase, read & share this book with colleges.
Things don't need to be done they way they are. The current crop of managers can't even lift the recipe from the HowTo manual that is Nuts! Of course, the secret to Southwest is its employee's & a management that acknowledges & rewards as such. Instead we get a group of industrial Neanderthals hell bent on creating empires & short term bonuses. It will end in tears unless we take control back.
Read the book.
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Romulus,
I agree, the book is excellent. I am friends with an Australain aviation consultant who worked for Southwest as an Engineer for around 8 years. He reckons that the book is pretty much true in all aspects, with just the odd embelishment, otherwise spot on.
Irrespective of some of the familar LCC format such as cheap fares with high seat occupancy, tight turnarounds and second tier airports utilised and a workforce that admittedly works pretty damn hard the 'aura' of the airline remains unique.
We have had many long conversations about the LCC difference between Herb Kelleher's outfit and Aussie LCC's as an example, and it would take way too long to recite, but the basic differences are that Kelleher engaged with his staff across ALL levels and he mandated that his managers did the same. He promoted from within and thus kept a large pool of experienced managers and frontline staff for extensive periods, often decades. Happy staff means a productive workforce, in turn the consumer scores a win, the staff score a win and the airline score a win. All staff reaped some reward financially from the company's performance, rather than a select group of silk tie wearing latte sipper's raping the staff for all they can. Basically the managers are engaged with staff at all levels (engagement by means of varying forms - respect, equity, fairness, communication and reasonableness to name a few points). When staff are required to 'go the extra mile' they do so knowing that it increases the longevity and viability of their job. The same cannot be said for the majority of todays LCC's.
Southwest also has maintained it's pride due to a majority happy workforce. This doesnt mean they have not had some issues over the years, but in general those issues are very minimal when compared to other airlines that operate under a similar framework. They have remained financially viable through almost their entire existence, but the GFC bit them hard and some maintenence cutting saw a few issues arise as well as some 'FAA punitive action', but in all they keep making some profit each year without the need to enforce mass retrenchments or mergers to survive. Management lead by example during the good periods AND during cyclic downturns and do not resort to shafting the workforce as their first avenue of cost cutting. No senior managers earn multi million dollar packages for not performing.
So basically yes, the book is pretty accurate. Kelleher was similar to our very own Clive Palmer from what I understand. Everybody gets their palms greased for earning their organisation a quid. Sounds ok to me.....
I agree, the book is excellent. I am friends with an Australain aviation consultant who worked for Southwest as an Engineer for around 8 years. He reckons that the book is pretty much true in all aspects, with just the odd embelishment, otherwise spot on.
Irrespective of some of the familar LCC format such as cheap fares with high seat occupancy, tight turnarounds and second tier airports utilised and a workforce that admittedly works pretty damn hard the 'aura' of the airline remains unique.
We have had many long conversations about the LCC difference between Herb Kelleher's outfit and Aussie LCC's as an example, and it would take way too long to recite, but the basic differences are that Kelleher engaged with his staff across ALL levels and he mandated that his managers did the same. He promoted from within and thus kept a large pool of experienced managers and frontline staff for extensive periods, often decades. Happy staff means a productive workforce, in turn the consumer scores a win, the staff score a win and the airline score a win. All staff reaped some reward financially from the company's performance, rather than a select group of silk tie wearing latte sipper's raping the staff for all they can. Basically the managers are engaged with staff at all levels (engagement by means of varying forms - respect, equity, fairness, communication and reasonableness to name a few points). When staff are required to 'go the extra mile' they do so knowing that it increases the longevity and viability of their job. The same cannot be said for the majority of todays LCC's.
Southwest also has maintained it's pride due to a majority happy workforce. This doesnt mean they have not had some issues over the years, but in general those issues are very minimal when compared to other airlines that operate under a similar framework. They have remained financially viable through almost their entire existence, but the GFC bit them hard and some maintenence cutting saw a few issues arise as well as some 'FAA punitive action', but in all they keep making some profit each year without the need to enforce mass retrenchments or mergers to survive. Management lead by example during the good periods AND during cyclic downturns and do not resort to shafting the workforce as their first avenue of cost cutting. No senior managers earn multi million dollar packages for not performing.
So basically yes, the book is pretty accurate. Kelleher was similar to our very own Clive Palmer from what I understand. Everybody gets their palms greased for earning their organisation a quid. Sounds ok to me.....
Last edited by gobbledock; 31st Dec 2010 at 10:49.