Expressions of Interest for urinals to be installed in 737 cockpits
Thread Starter
Expressions of Interest for urinals to be installed in 737 cockpits
Subject: Report: Air India Express B738 over Arabian Sea on May 26th 2010, inadvertent nose dive
By Simon Hradecky, created Wednesday, Nov 24th 2010 13:38Z, last updated Wednesday, Nov 24th 2010 13:38Z
An Air India Express Boeing 737-800, registration VT-AXJ performing flight IX-212 from Dubai (United Arab Emirates) to Pune (India) with 113 passengers, was enroute at FL370 at Mach 0.76 between waypoints PARAR and DOGET with autopilot A in CMD mode and autothrottle engaged. The captain decided to take a short break to visit the washroom and left the cockpit, however noticed the washroom was occupied and wanted to return to the cockpit, when he noticed the airplane was pitching down. He attempted to enter the cockpit, the cockpit door however did not open. He used the emergency access code to open the door and re-entered the cockpit about 40 seconds after he had left the cockpit. He observed the airplane's attitude was 26 degrees nose down and 5 degrees left bank, the speed in the red band, the mach overspeed clackers sounding. He disengaged the autopilot, arrested the descent, switched the engines to continous relight and resumed level flight before climbing back to FL370 and joining the assigned track again. The captain then engaged LNAV and VNAV modes and engaged the autopilot. The airplane continued to Pune for a safe landing, no injuries and no damage occurred.
India's Directorate General of Civil Aviation DGCA released their final report concluding the probable cause of the serious incident was:
The incident occurred due to inadvertent handling of the control column in fully automated mode by the co-pilot which got compounded as he was not trained to recover the aircraft in automated mode.
Subsequent recovery actions by the PIC without coordination with co-pilot was the contributory factor.
The DGCA reported, that the first officer had been adjusting his seat forward shortly after the captain had left the cockpit. The flight data recorder showed a control force of about 20lbs nose down from the first officer's control column at that time prompting the autopilot to change mode from CMD to control wheel steering pitch and 5 second later also to control wheel steering roll modes indicative that the first officer also gave roll inputs on his control column. 13 seconds after the control input the altitude chime sounded indicating the airplane had significantly departed its assigned altitude. The autopilot changed mode to altitude acquire attempting to climb back to FL370.
The chime however caused panic with the first officer and he pushed the control column forward with a force of about 50lbs. 15 seconds later he attempted to pull the control column, however the airplane continued to descend, so he pushed the control column forward again and the airplane continued to pitch down.
About 40 seconds after the captain had left the cockpit he returned to the cockpit.
Data off the flight data recorder indicated, that the captain entered the cockpit when the airplane had lost 2000 feet (FL350). He did not take control according to take over procedure, but applied force onto the control column which resulted in opposite forces from the first officer and the captain, during which the airplane lost further 5000 feet. The captain did not gradually increase control forces but yanked a 125lbs control force pull input within 2 seconds which levelled the aircraft, that subsequently started to climb and joined the assigned track again, however without applying RVSM contingency procedures after the airplane had departed its assigned FL370 and was now at FL300 about 50 seconds later.
During the upset the airplane experienced vertical accelerations between -0.2G and +2.1G. All passengers were seated at the time of the upset and enjoying their dinner. No injuries occurred therefore. The airplane reached a maximum speed of 0.888 Mach above Mmo.
The DGCA said regarding survival aspects: "The continuation of rapid descent would have led to Catastrophic structural failure of aircraft in air. The yanking of control column by PIC could have also resulted in loss of pitch control surfaces."
The DGCA said in their findings, that the first officer probably had no clue how to tackle this kind of emergency. He had not put on his seat harness. The jet upset exercise is carried out in simulator checks only in manual mode and is not done with autopilot engaged. The first officer was not involved in any prior incident.
In their safety recommendations the DGCA said, appropriate action should be taken against both crew members, and the pilot training curriculum should be reviewed.
By Simon Hradecky, created Wednesday, Nov 24th 2010 13:38Z, last updated Wednesday, Nov 24th 2010 13:38Z
An Air India Express Boeing 737-800, registration VT-AXJ performing flight IX-212 from Dubai (United Arab Emirates) to Pune (India) with 113 passengers, was enroute at FL370 at Mach 0.76 between waypoints PARAR and DOGET with autopilot A in CMD mode and autothrottle engaged. The captain decided to take a short break to visit the washroom and left the cockpit, however noticed the washroom was occupied and wanted to return to the cockpit, when he noticed the airplane was pitching down. He attempted to enter the cockpit, the cockpit door however did not open. He used the emergency access code to open the door and re-entered the cockpit about 40 seconds after he had left the cockpit. He observed the airplane's attitude was 26 degrees nose down and 5 degrees left bank, the speed in the red band, the mach overspeed clackers sounding. He disengaged the autopilot, arrested the descent, switched the engines to continous relight and resumed level flight before climbing back to FL370 and joining the assigned track again. The captain then engaged LNAV and VNAV modes and engaged the autopilot. The airplane continued to Pune for a safe landing, no injuries and no damage occurred.
India's Directorate General of Civil Aviation DGCA released their final report concluding the probable cause of the serious incident was:
The incident occurred due to inadvertent handling of the control column in fully automated mode by the co-pilot which got compounded as he was not trained to recover the aircraft in automated mode.
Subsequent recovery actions by the PIC without coordination with co-pilot was the contributory factor.
The DGCA reported, that the first officer had been adjusting his seat forward shortly after the captain had left the cockpit. The flight data recorder showed a control force of about 20lbs nose down from the first officer's control column at that time prompting the autopilot to change mode from CMD to control wheel steering pitch and 5 second later also to control wheel steering roll modes indicative that the first officer also gave roll inputs on his control column. 13 seconds after the control input the altitude chime sounded indicating the airplane had significantly departed its assigned altitude. The autopilot changed mode to altitude acquire attempting to climb back to FL370.
The chime however caused panic with the first officer and he pushed the control column forward with a force of about 50lbs. 15 seconds later he attempted to pull the control column, however the airplane continued to descend, so he pushed the control column forward again and the airplane continued to pitch down.
About 40 seconds after the captain had left the cockpit he returned to the cockpit.
Data off the flight data recorder indicated, that the captain entered the cockpit when the airplane had lost 2000 feet (FL350). He did not take control according to take over procedure, but applied force onto the control column which resulted in opposite forces from the first officer and the captain, during which the airplane lost further 5000 feet. The captain did not gradually increase control forces but yanked a 125lbs control force pull input within 2 seconds which levelled the aircraft, that subsequently started to climb and joined the assigned track again, however without applying RVSM contingency procedures after the airplane had departed its assigned FL370 and was now at FL300 about 50 seconds later.
During the upset the airplane experienced vertical accelerations between -0.2G and +2.1G. All passengers were seated at the time of the upset and enjoying their dinner. No injuries occurred therefore. The airplane reached a maximum speed of 0.888 Mach above Mmo.
The DGCA said regarding survival aspects: "The continuation of rapid descent would have led to Catastrophic structural failure of aircraft in air. The yanking of control column by PIC could have also resulted in loss of pitch control surfaces."
The DGCA said in their findings, that the first officer probably had no clue how to tackle this kind of emergency. He had not put on his seat harness. The jet upset exercise is carried out in simulator checks only in manual mode and is not done with autopilot engaged. The first officer was not involved in any prior incident.
In their safety recommendations the DGCA said, appropriate action should be taken against both crew members, and the pilot training curriculum should be reviewed.
WOW!
FARK. 
IMHO, appropriate acion ought to ALSO be taken against the relevant personnel in the Indian DGCA who approved the "so-called" pilot training curriculum in the first place! Like line the bastards up against a wall and shoot them! And RFN (Right fcuking now), before they expose anyone else to such EXTREME and totally unnescessary risk.
For chrissakes, where's aviation headed these days??
I hope like Christ that aviation training in Australia NEVER EVER EVER EVER plumbs the depth of the total and absolute incompetence displayed by both Air India Express and the Indian DGCA in this matter.
Bloody IDIOTS!
Fortunately my faith in Australian aviation remains intact from the perspective of the totally outstanding job that was performed by the crew of the recent QF A380 'event'.
Christ only knows what would have happened if the same thing had happened to an Air India Express aircraft! Almost certainly a bloody great big smoking hole in the ground I reckon.
The DGCA said in their findings, that the first officer probably had no clue how to tackle this kind of emergency. He had not put on his seat harness. The jet upset exercise is carried out in simulator checks only in manual mode and is not done with autopilot engaged. The first officer was not involved in any prior incident.
In their safety recommendations the DGCA said, appropriate action should be taken against both crew members, and the pilot training curriculum should be reviewed.
In their safety recommendations the DGCA said, appropriate action should be taken against both crew members, and the pilot training curriculum should be reviewed.
IMHO, appropriate acion ought to ALSO be taken against the relevant personnel in the Indian DGCA who approved the "so-called" pilot training curriculum in the first place! Like line the bastards up against a wall and shoot them! And RFN (Right fcuking now), before they expose anyone else to such EXTREME and totally unnescessary risk.
For chrissakes, where's aviation headed these days??
I hope like Christ that aviation training in Australia NEVER EVER EVER EVER plumbs the depth of the total and absolute incompetence displayed by both Air India Express and the Indian DGCA in this matter.
Bloody IDIOTS!
Fortunately my faith in Australian aviation remains intact from the perspective of the totally outstanding job that was performed by the crew of the recent QF A380 'event'.
Christ only knows what would have happened if the same thing had happened to an Air India Express aircraft! Almost certainly a bloody great big smoking hole in the ground I reckon.
I don't understand. This doesn't make any sense. Why did the FO not just simply raise the nose and put the autopilot back on? This is not ATPL stuff this is not even PPL stuff. A student just after ops and effects can do this.
dodgybrothers...
Well if it happens then I'm never ever ever ever ever ever going to travel by air, ever ever ever ever ever ever again!
My 'crossed-off' list of air travel providers now includes Air India Express!
The pilots of that flight would be far better suited for alternative employment I think!
Well if it happens then I'm never ever ever ever ever ever going to travel by air, ever ever ever ever ever ever again!
My 'crossed-off' list of air travel providers now includes Air India Express!
The pilots of that flight would be far better suited for alternative employment I think!
without applying RVSM contingency procedures
I sympathise with the captain re-entering the cockpit. If the thing was diving towards the ocean I'd be inclined to lean over, pull the power off a bit (ATS off of course!) roll wings level and pull the stick back "firmly but not hard". Hardly the time to get back in seat, put on seat belt, announce in good CRM voice "My controls, Bloggs, you've had your turn" and then pull out of the dive.
As for the FO, well, he's probably just a product of the system. More of them coming, me thinks. If you don't train them properly, that's what you get. The writing is on the wall.
What's this Control Wheel Steering anyway?
Is the AP in or ain't it?
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: UAE
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
maybe it has something to do with this...............
http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far...ts-busted.html
Any one up for a flight in India?????
http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far...ts-busted.html
Any one up for a flight in India?????
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wonder which operators or training providers are passing out these Indian cadet students with a type rating. Many go to USA for type ratings. With full use automatics taught from the first session, it is no wonder these incidents and similar accidents involving poor basic flying skills will continue to dominate the future aviation scene - particularly in India, Middle East and SE Asia.
Manufacturers and airlines realise that low hour pilot hiring is standard procedure in countries with little or no general aviation. That will never change. But surely by now, the penny should have dropped that newly graduated cadets going directly into the second in command seat of highly automated types, must first be taught basic jet handling in the simulator - regardless of the type of aircraft they are training on. Australia is not doing that today.
It seems crazy to teach automatics as first priority when there is deadly evidence of these pilots lacking basic flying ability. With apologies to Sir Humphrey Appleby of "Yes Minister" (the young won't know what I'm talking about!) - it is indeed a courageous decision by any captain that leaves these fellows alone up front even for a few minutes.
Manufacturers and airlines realise that low hour pilot hiring is standard procedure in countries with little or no general aviation. That will never change. But surely by now, the penny should have dropped that newly graduated cadets going directly into the second in command seat of highly automated types, must first be taught basic jet handling in the simulator - regardless of the type of aircraft they are training on. Australia is not doing that today.
It seems crazy to teach automatics as first priority when there is deadly evidence of these pilots lacking basic flying ability. With apologies to Sir Humphrey Appleby of "Yes Minister" (the young won't know what I'm talking about!) - it is indeed a courageous decision by any captain that leaves these fellows alone up front even for a few minutes.
Last edited by Tee Emm; 25th Nov 2010 at 12:10.
Moderator
Thread back open. 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New Zealand
Age: 40
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have travelled in India many times on their domestic carriers and having friends who actually fly as FOs on some of these carriers, I thought I would put my two cents in.
The civil aviation training standards in India are poor compared to Australian standards. I had a mate who had finished his CPL in NZ, was doing his check ride in India for the process of conversion. He was told off for carrying out a steep turn in a C-152. "Aircraft are not to exceed 30 deg. AoB at any time", he was told. Stall recovery is always initiated at the onset of the stall warning. Engine Failure after Take-off, the students get told to aim for the end of the field and hope for the best. First solo is conducted with Instructor still on board. Navigation exercises only go from point A to point B. Instrument flying tests usually require the student to Take-off, demonstrate a holding pattern and land. Like most other flight tests, they all begin with a bribe paid to the Instructor & ATO. The bribe can be in the form of money, cellphones or laptops. There are a couple of schools which say that they can provide training on par with western standards in India itself, but because of the corruption, this is never the case.
The theory is on par with JAA. They actually use JAA books to study for the exams, and the theory exams are based on them. It is the practical side which is lacking far behind.
Then, you have students who train overseas. Australia is a favourite destination, as we have good standards.
But, to get a job in India, it's not what you know, it's who you know. Even before the interviews are conducted, the spots are already taken. The interviews are just a show for the DGCA and the rest of the applicants. There was a case of girl who was about to finish her CPL in India, and got the job offer from Kingfisher. A family friend of mine, who was helping with CPL theory at that school, asked her how she got the job. Her reply was that Kingfisher always pick the gifted ones! Upon further investigation, my friend found out that her father was the Airworthiness officer for DGCA.
Let me not get started on the DGCA. There are plenty of threads on that topic in the South East section.
Now, there are a few positives in this whole mess called Indian Aviation. During line training, you are required to pass exams on the 737 for example. You can get two chances to pass this exam, or you are out. It is the same for the A320, if you fail the type-rating exam, you are out. During the aviation boom (04-06), guys with just a CPL, without MECIR, got jobs in the airlines flying B737. But during type-rating, these guys were asked to get their MECIR and then return for training. My mate, who had done his entire MECIR training in NZ, but did not have enough time to sit his flight test, got his MECIR check ride done on the 737 during his type-rating.
The Indian air force pilots are highly trained. The RAAF has regular exchange programs for officers with the IAF and vice versa. I have a family friend who was a Mig-29 instructor in the IAF. He joined Air India as a B737 FO and is about to become a Captain. Got another mate, who is working as an FO for Jet airways, who loves to hand fly the 737 in the cruise (just for a few mins). He misses his C-172 flying days!
So, the problem is not just the DGCA or the Airlines not setting good training standards, but the corruption which causes the leaks and the not so good get through. But who is to blame here, if you need anything to be done in India, you have to pay a bribe. If you refuse to pay, your work gets held up. If you decide to complain, your work gets passed on to someone else, who then causes delays on purpose for dobbing his mate.
The civil aviation training standards in India are poor compared to Australian standards. I had a mate who had finished his CPL in NZ, was doing his check ride in India for the process of conversion. He was told off for carrying out a steep turn in a C-152. "Aircraft are not to exceed 30 deg. AoB at any time", he was told. Stall recovery is always initiated at the onset of the stall warning. Engine Failure after Take-off, the students get told to aim for the end of the field and hope for the best. First solo is conducted with Instructor still on board. Navigation exercises only go from point A to point B. Instrument flying tests usually require the student to Take-off, demonstrate a holding pattern and land. Like most other flight tests, they all begin with a bribe paid to the Instructor & ATO. The bribe can be in the form of money, cellphones or laptops. There are a couple of schools which say that they can provide training on par with western standards in India itself, but because of the corruption, this is never the case.
The theory is on par with JAA. They actually use JAA books to study for the exams, and the theory exams are based on them. It is the practical side which is lacking far behind.
Then, you have students who train overseas. Australia is a favourite destination, as we have good standards.
But, to get a job in India, it's not what you know, it's who you know. Even before the interviews are conducted, the spots are already taken. The interviews are just a show for the DGCA and the rest of the applicants. There was a case of girl who was about to finish her CPL in India, and got the job offer from Kingfisher. A family friend of mine, who was helping with CPL theory at that school, asked her how she got the job. Her reply was that Kingfisher always pick the gifted ones! Upon further investigation, my friend found out that her father was the Airworthiness officer for DGCA.
Let me not get started on the DGCA. There are plenty of threads on that topic in the South East section.
Now, there are a few positives in this whole mess called Indian Aviation. During line training, you are required to pass exams on the 737 for example. You can get two chances to pass this exam, or you are out. It is the same for the A320, if you fail the type-rating exam, you are out. During the aviation boom (04-06), guys with just a CPL, without MECIR, got jobs in the airlines flying B737. But during type-rating, these guys were asked to get their MECIR and then return for training. My mate, who had done his entire MECIR training in NZ, but did not have enough time to sit his flight test, got his MECIR check ride done on the 737 during his type-rating.
The Indian air force pilots are highly trained. The RAAF has regular exchange programs for officers with the IAF and vice versa. I have a family friend who was a Mig-29 instructor in the IAF. He joined Air India as a B737 FO and is about to become a Captain. Got another mate, who is working as an FO for Jet airways, who loves to hand fly the 737 in the cruise (just for a few mins). He misses his C-172 flying days!
So, the problem is not just the DGCA or the Airlines not setting good training standards, but the corruption which causes the leaks and the not so good get through. But who is to blame here, if you need anything to be done in India, you have to pay a bribe. If you refuse to pay, your work gets held up. If you decide to complain, your work gets passed on to someone else, who then causes delays on purpose for dobbing his mate.
Last edited by flyboy_nz; 26th Nov 2010 at 22:10.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Bus Class
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having worked with a number of airlines in India recently I find this quite disturbing. I have not had any dealings with this operator, but have found standards higher than reported on this thread with other Indian operators. Given that India only trains 40 local pilots per year within India the others are trained it seems in Australia, USA, Canada and NZ from my observations.
There is still room for much improvement in standards it seems. Corruption is always such a hindrance.
There is still room for much improvement in standards it seems. Corruption is always such a hindrance.
Re ' First solo is conducted with Instructor still on board.'.......
HA HA HA HO HO HO......AHHHAA AHHAA AHHAA ......
......
[SIZE="2"]You're kidding.....right..??/SIZE]
HA HA HA HO HO HO......AHHHAA AHHAA AHHAA ......
......[SIZE="2"]You're kidding.....right..??/SIZE]
I don't know about in a cockpit, but I still think having them at a gas station next to the pump is a good idea. You could refuel and defuel at the same time.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Permanently lost
Posts: 1,785
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re ' First solo is conducted with Instructor still on board.'.......
but I have also heard rumors of a certain school there having instructors accompanying students on "solo" navs.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: SEA
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Urinals in the cockpit??
Well that will be the next directive from the DGCA. This will be their quick fix/patch to avoid what happened on that flight from Dubai to Pune (India)
Don't believe me? Well, their reaction to the Mangalore tragedy is 4 medicals per year. 1 or 2 normal medicals for your license which is "validated" by the DGCA and the military, space cadet/astronaut/fighter pilot, medical twice per year, that the DGCA now insists all expatiate pilots pass.
I kid you not.
Well that will be the next directive from the DGCA. This will be their quick fix/patch to avoid what happened on that flight from Dubai to Pune (India)
Don't believe me? Well, their reaction to the Mangalore tragedy is 4 medicals per year. 1 or 2 normal medicals for your license which is "validated" by the DGCA and the military, space cadet/astronaut/fighter pilot, medical twice per year, that the DGCA now insists all expatiate pilots pass.
I kid you not.
Urinals?
Maybe this FO need a commode installed after this incident.
Gotta love the mentality of money=automatic license for many of the O/S students.
Can't tell you how to conduct a Sector 3 entry after supposedly 20 hours of IF training
Feeling sick because of Ramadan, yet you wait 15 minutes while they are having a coke at the vending machine with their mates
Taxi across a drainage ditch after returning from a solo, "Oh sorry captain, I taxiied through a muddy puddle", with mud thrown all over the a/c and accompanying slashes across the nosewheel gouge in the ground.
The perception of being a pilot is they get to be the guy who sits in the terminal sipping coffee and chatting up hosties.
Maybe this FO need a commode installed after this incident.
Gotta love the mentality of money=automatic license for many of the O/S students.
Can't tell you how to conduct a Sector 3 entry after supposedly 20 hours of IF training
Feeling sick because of Ramadan, yet you wait 15 minutes while they are having a coke at the vending machine with their mates
Taxi across a drainage ditch after returning from a solo, "Oh sorry captain, I taxiied through a muddy puddle", with mud thrown all over the a/c and accompanying slashes across the nosewheel gouge in the ground.
The perception of being a pilot is they get to be the guy who sits in the terminal sipping coffee and chatting up hosties.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: TX, USA
Age: 41
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wonder, just wonder, if I might have crossed paths with some of those Air India types. Some of them were nice kids. I was fueling at an FBO, and some of the Indian students from a local school would often be at the airport. I've heard of late, (and know some of the instructors there who tried hard to help them be good pilots) that they have found cheaper places to fly, like the Philippines, and elsewhere - and that the level of training is even lower than I think it already was... It was quite challenging working around them as a CFI in this airspace...
R
R
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: gold coast QLD australia
Age: 86
Posts: 1,345
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My daughter, a QF S/O, is already freaking out about pat downs, a urinal next to her on the flight deck would be the final straw. One, its no good to her, two, she could not begin to imagine where she would look. Three, she would go to work armed with a bottle of pine o clean. Too many female pilots these days lads, pehaps back to the old style pi$s jug. About that Indian F/O,your winding us up arn't you, seriously.