Joyce accuses unions of living 'beyond cloud-cuckoo land'
Thread Starter
Joyce accuses unions of living 'beyond cloud-cuckoo land'
So if we are living in reality like Mr Joyce, can we safely assume that he is going to open a flying school and start paying for the entire cost of training pilots just like all his 'Asian competition'?
Instead he wants pilots to pay for their own training, go flying get some experience, then pay for an endorsement, then move to a foreign country.....just like all the Asian competition does...... right....
Mr Joyce is not representing reality in the Asian pilot market when he says 'We need to have an Asian carrier with Asian rates' The reality is those pilots do not pay for their training nor are they paid super which is compulsory in Australia.
Qantas chief's 'Asian rates' push for Singapore offshoot
Instead he wants pilots to pay for their own training, go flying get some experience, then pay for an endorsement, then move to a foreign country.....just like all the Asian competition does...... right....
Mr Joyce is not representing reality in the Asian pilot market when he says 'We need to have an Asian carrier with Asian rates' The reality is those pilots do not pay for their training nor are they paid super which is compulsory in Australia.
Qantas chief's 'Asian rates' push for Singapore offshoot
QANTAS chief executive Alan Joyce has claimed the airline's Asian offshoot, Jetstar Asia, needs to pay ''Asian rates'' to be competitive against low-cost rivals and has accused unions of living ''beyond cloud-cuckoo land''.
His comments have infuriated the airline's pilots and raise the prospect of Qantas heading for a showdown with some of its key unions later this year as they engage in enterprise bargaining negotiations.
Mr Joyce told a business lunch in Sydney yesterday that ''it was just crazy'' to think that it could operate Singapore-based Jetstar Asia with pilots on Australian conditions because it would make it uncompetitive against rivals such as Tiger and AirAsia.
''It is an Asian carrier operating in an Asian environment,'' he said. ''Some of the unions, I think, have gone past cloud-cuckoo land and have gone on to a planet where competition doesn't exists.
''The fact is we are in a highly competitive market. We need to have an Asian carrier with Asian rates and the same for New Zealand … Jetconnect is a New Zealand operation with New Zealand paying conditions … that is competing against New Zealand carriers.''
Jetstar has encouraged pilots to transfer to its new Singapore-Melbourne route where - despite flying Australian-registered A330 aircraft into Australia - they will be employed on private contracts under Singapore laws.
The president of the Australian and International Pilots Association, Barry Jackson, said Singapore-based pilots were paid about 30 per cent less than those in Australia. ''Can I get a Qantas CEO on Asian rates?'' asked Mr Jackson. ''You don't have to be a rocket scientist to realise where this is all going.''
He said his members understood the airline needed to be competitive, but in exchange for cutting their terms and conditions they wanted assurances that ''we will at least have a career''.
Jetconnect pilots do not receive the same superannuation entitlements as their Australian-based counterparts.
His comments have infuriated the airline's pilots and raise the prospect of Qantas heading for a showdown with some of its key unions later this year as they engage in enterprise bargaining negotiations.
Mr Joyce told a business lunch in Sydney yesterday that ''it was just crazy'' to think that it could operate Singapore-based Jetstar Asia with pilots on Australian conditions because it would make it uncompetitive against rivals such as Tiger and AirAsia.
''It is an Asian carrier operating in an Asian environment,'' he said. ''Some of the unions, I think, have gone past cloud-cuckoo land and have gone on to a planet where competition doesn't exists.
''The fact is we are in a highly competitive market. We need to have an Asian carrier with Asian rates and the same for New Zealand … Jetconnect is a New Zealand operation with New Zealand paying conditions … that is competing against New Zealand carriers.''
Jetstar has encouraged pilots to transfer to its new Singapore-Melbourne route where - despite flying Australian-registered A330 aircraft into Australia - they will be employed on private contracts under Singapore laws.
The president of the Australian and International Pilots Association, Barry Jackson, said Singapore-based pilots were paid about 30 per cent less than those in Australia. ''Can I get a Qantas CEO on Asian rates?'' asked Mr Jackson. ''You don't have to be a rocket scientist to realise where this is all going.''
He said his members understood the airline needed to be competitive, but in exchange for cutting their terms and conditions they wanted assurances that ''we will at least have a career''.
Jetconnect pilots do not receive the same superannuation entitlements as their Australian-based counterparts.
When you get a CEO making statements like that, it confirms that the actions that AIPA is taking (JetConnect Court case & industry wide pilot meetings) are being considered as a big threat to the bonuses paid to those at the upper end of the corporate ladder. 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 545
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There's a little box on the Qantas AGM Papers regarding shareholder approval of Joyce's performance bonus......with great satisfaction I put a cross in AGAINST and I hope every other shareholder does the same.
With Joyce & Club Clifford also mandating the 787 configs to be identical between QF & JQ there's an even bigger risk.
I think there's a lot to be said about Joyce's "any aircraft, any crew anywhere at the same rate" model - especially given every one of Q's international route approvals have been amended for capacity use by QF, JQ or another subisduary. (read JQ 'franchise')
Unfortunately this bloke has a one dimensional view of competitive strategy and that's price alone - what he totally fails to realise is that service, schedule, safety perception and value perception are equally important. (proof point the market backlash when it was deemed JQ only to HTI, Japan etc etc).
......who needs Allco or equity pitches to bugger a business when it's own Exec's can do a better job of wrecking it.
AT
With Joyce & Club Clifford also mandating the 787 configs to be identical between QF & JQ there's an even bigger risk.
I think there's a lot to be said about Joyce's "any aircraft, any crew anywhere at the same rate" model - especially given every one of Q's international route approvals have been amended for capacity use by QF, JQ or another subisduary. (read JQ 'franchise')
Unfortunately this bloke has a one dimensional view of competitive strategy and that's price alone - what he totally fails to realise is that service, schedule, safety perception and value perception are equally important. (proof point the market backlash when it was deemed JQ only to HTI, Japan etc etc).
......who needs Allco or equity pitches to bugger a business when it's own Exec's can do a better job of wrecking it.
AT
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Hotel, Crew Bus, Flight Deck, Hotel
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It makes my stomach turn when arrogant ceos, with 10 million dollar salary packages a year, talk about how 'everyone else' staffing their airline, has to tighten their belts to be competitive.
As for Asian rates, CX and SQ pay pilots a hell of a lot more than j* and yet are significantly more profitable.
This 'screw the pay and conditions' of your staff to be competitive argument is old and a lot of rubbish,....... well assuming you employed reasonable mangement.
As for Asian rates, CX and SQ pay pilots a hell of a lot more than j* and yet are significantly more profitable.
This 'screw the pay and conditions' of your staff to be competitive argument is old and a lot of rubbish,....... well assuming you employed reasonable mangement.
Last edited by Mr Pilot 2007; 30th Sep 2010 at 10:59.
I think maybe the wheels are coming off the Jetstar bandwagon. They (management) have bet the house on this model and i think that they are not getting the profit (yield) they need to justify the business. So, in typical Qantas fashion instead of growing the business they cut costs. Where can you save the most on wages, pilots of course. How much are the CEOs paid? Irrelant of course. Il bet Buchanan doent take the same meal allowances that is paid to his Singapore based flight attendants when he goes some where on an overnight!!!
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 451
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Despite AJ's unhelpful rhetoric...he will have to live with the umpire's decision...
Senate carries Xenophon motion for inquiry into pilot training and standards – Plane Talking
Lets hope the pendulum now begins a swing back in the right direction.
PG
Senate carries Xenophon motion for inquiry into pilot training and standards – Plane Talking
Lets hope the pendulum now begins a swing back in the right direction.
PG
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 370
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jetstar Asia has always been a basket case, it was mentioned as a mistake in the height of the losses, and it still continues today. They have no continued hope if Tiger keeps expanding at their current rate, and keeping their focus on China/India. Because they cant keep up with Tiger/AirAsia's cost bases, they try and launch into market like...Shantou 
They seem to rely on alot of interlining passengers more than anything else.
They seem to rely on alot of interlining passengers more than anything else.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Alabama, then Wyoming, then Idaho and now staying with Kharon on Styx houseboat
Age: 61
Posts: 1,437
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree. JQ Asia is a complete basket case, has been for some time, and it likely will be for some time to come. QF Group has sent two-bit management over their to run a two-bit operation and are out of their league.
Don't count on it. The wee man has the ears of some powerful people in high places, he won't yield without a fight to the death.
Correct. There are some very edgy senior individuals within the group at present sweating over some poor decision making and watching the profits roll out the door. My source tell's me that there is another round of blood letting to come shortly.
Once a CEO always a CEO. Lets face it, QF has been on on a downhill slide well before Joyce took over, and since he commenced it has only accelerated in it's demise in profitability, service, safety and reliability.
All I know is that he ain't worth the money he is earning and if the shareholders are too stupid to see this then they deserve what they vote for. He deserves nothing less than say $500.000 per year, no bonuses, no incentives and not a dime more. If he wants to earn more then that should equate purely to his performance, which currently is on par with Boston Bruce - crap !
Despite AJ's unhelpful rhetoric...he will have to live with the umpire's decision...
I think maybe the wheels are coming off the Jetstar bandwagon. They (management) have bet the house on this model and i think that they are not getting the profit (yield) they need to justify the business. So, in typical Qantas fashion instead of growing the business they cut costs. Where can you save the most on wages, pilots of course.
It makes my stomach turn when arrogant ceos, with 10 million dollar salary packages a year, talk about how 'everyone else' staffing their airline, has to tighten their belts to be competitive.
All I know is that he ain't worth the money he is earning and if the shareholders are too stupid to see this then they deserve what they vote for. He deserves nothing less than say $500.000 per year, no bonuses, no incentives and not a dime more. If he wants to earn more then that should equate purely to his performance, which currently is on par with Boston Bruce - crap !
And as reported in the SMH today, a CEO with far more experience than AJ has
Etihad comes out of the cloud to return fire on Qantas
But it might be a fight that he can't see winning?
Maybe he's worried that some people who know more about both domestic & international operations than both he and BB will jump ship to Virgin Blue and V Aus?
"accused the head of Qantas, Alan Joyce, of attempting to deflect attention from Qantas's ''own issues'' after he attacked its profitability."
The wee man has the ears of some powerful people in high places, he won't yield without a fight to the death
My source tell's me that there is another round of blood letting to come shortly.
Dear Qantas Board
I am applyling for the position of CEO. I require a simple contract, annual payment of $1million with no bonus scheme (the bonus being I keep my job). I don't need a company car, with that cash i can buy my own and afford to run it. I am certainly qualified with 15 years aviation experience including office time, ops management, safety managment, and having served in all roles within a company.
If i take over I will reduce the need of bonuses by returning to a system of known wages, I'm sure if the management don't like it they can move on and we will find management who do.
If you worry about my inexperience I don't see it as a problem as you are already willing to put inexperienced people behind the controls of aircraft.
If you find my appliciation a worry to what it could mean for management or the board welcome to the real world where all Qantas group employees (pilots to cleaners) are constantly under management pressure to reduce our their terms and conditions.
I wait for appointment as I qualify using the Qantas philosophy as cheapest man gets the job.
I am applyling for the position of CEO. I require a simple contract, annual payment of $1million with no bonus scheme (the bonus being I keep my job). I don't need a company car, with that cash i can buy my own and afford to run it. I am certainly qualified with 15 years aviation experience including office time, ops management, safety managment, and having served in all roles within a company.
If i take over I will reduce the need of bonuses by returning to a system of known wages, I'm sure if the management don't like it they can move on and we will find management who do.
If you worry about my inexperience I don't see it as a problem as you are already willing to put inexperienced people behind the controls of aircraft.
If you find my appliciation a worry to what it could mean for management or the board welcome to the real world where all Qantas group employees (pilots to cleaners) are constantly under management pressure to reduce our their terms and conditions.
I wait for appointment as I qualify using the Qantas philosophy as cheapest man gets the job.
Dear Engine Out, thank you for your application. Unfortunately, it has been unsuccesfull. This is due to the fact that you have to much experience, radical ideas (what no bonuses for us), and dont want enough money. We wish you well in your endeavours to find suitable employment however we think that you will not be rewarded due to those radical ideas. Yours Sincerely. The QANTAS board
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Sydney
Posts: 817
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
engine out -
what you are doing here is applying for a job on LESSER terms and conditions than those already incumbent in the job!
well done son. you are a TRUE pilot
----ducking for cover----
what you are doing here is applying for a job on LESSER terms and conditions than those already incumbent in the job!
well done son. you are a TRUE pilot
----ducking for cover----
I want to join the company as a Director. I'm willing to salary sacrifice to pay for my training, and once qualified I'll do the job for 2/3 of what the present position holder gets.
I'll work longer hours, stay in lower standard hotels and travel economy stand by. I'll happily eat the same food provided to air crews, no need for fancy directors lunches. If you want me to uproot my family and move to Darwin for an extended period, no problem.
Once employed I'm quite happy to see my terms and conditions further eroded.
I'm presently working as a pilot and am quite used to all this so I'll have no problem adjusting.
I'll work longer hours, stay in lower standard hotels and travel economy stand by. I'll happily eat the same food provided to air crews, no need for fancy directors lunches. If you want me to uproot my family and move to Darwin for an extended period, no problem.
Once employed I'm quite happy to see my terms and conditions further eroded.
I'm presently working as a pilot and am quite used to all this so I'll have no problem adjusting.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Aus
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah the old smokescreen trick.
Joyce is saying that Jetstar Asia pilots need to be paid 'Asian Rates'. He knows full well that that's not our argument. We don't pretend to tell Qantas what to pay Jetstar Asia Pilots. Oh and BTW last time I looked Air Asia were based out of KL (cost of living and wages less than half of SIN) and have their training paid for. Tiger don't operate wide body aircraft out of SIN.
WHAT THE REAL ISSUE IS- is Jetstar paying Jetstar Australia (VH- registered OZ AOC) pilots 'Asian' wages by creating artificial offshore bases (JQ SIN A-330). He will then use this as a hub to undermine and displace JQ EBA tech crew and if successful QF EBA tech crew. If you think this is pie in the sky stuff look at JQ 'International' flight attendants who are 'based' in Bangkok and Singapore but actually work predominantly out of Australia. This has allowed JQ to get rid of most of its Aussie international CC and avoid paying Aussie T&C's.
The writing's on the wall boys. Fight this one or die a long slow death
Joyce is saying that Jetstar Asia pilots need to be paid 'Asian Rates'. He knows full well that that's not our argument. We don't pretend to tell Qantas what to pay Jetstar Asia Pilots. Oh and BTW last time I looked Air Asia were based out of KL (cost of living and wages less than half of SIN) and have their training paid for. Tiger don't operate wide body aircraft out of SIN.
WHAT THE REAL ISSUE IS- is Jetstar paying Jetstar Australia (VH- registered OZ AOC) pilots 'Asian' wages by creating artificial offshore bases (JQ SIN A-330). He will then use this as a hub to undermine and displace JQ EBA tech crew and if successful QF EBA tech crew. If you think this is pie in the sky stuff look at JQ 'International' flight attendants who are 'based' in Bangkok and Singapore but actually work predominantly out of Australia. This has allowed JQ to get rid of most of its Aussie international CC and avoid paying Aussie T&C's.
The writing's on the wall boys. Fight this one or die a long slow death
Thread Starter
It is an Asian carrier operating in an Asian environment
Can the pilot's union get a newspaper piece up on this whole thing being a smokescreen and point out the hypocrisy.
Last edited by neville_nobody; 1st Oct 2010 at 03:10.
Who's living in cuckoo land?
From The Australian today,
Passengers flying high in dollar lift-off | The Australian
and
So, is the dollar reducing the fuel bill or does it mean bigger fuel bills?
If it is, as I assume, reducing the bills, do they still charge those fuel levies?
From The Australian today,
Passengers flying high in dollar lift-off | The Australian
Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce on Wednesday acknowledged the positive impact of the dollar on the airline's profitability by lowering the cost of its fleet renewal program and reducing its fuel bill.
and
"Qantas spends $3bn on fuel a year and a higher Australian dollar would mean bigger fuel bills. As a business we do not want this to be long term," Mr Joyce said.
If it is, as I assume, reducing the bills, do they still charge those fuel levies?