Joyce accuses unions of living 'beyond cloud-cuckoo land'
Qantas hedge their fuel at a US dollar price. From where I'm sitting, an increase in the value of the AUD means cheaper fuel for Quaintass. Obviously, I'm missing something.
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Almost feel sorry for AJ.
It was Dixon who nailed the coffin on Qantas and took home millions for doing so.
Under his watch Emirates gobbled up most of the Aus-Europe traffic. Etihaad and Qatar are picking up the scraps. Their labour costs are so low that competing against them is almost impossible. Pilot salaries are Ok but you have to live in the sandpit
The only market left is China and India. looks like that will be gobbled up by the Malaysians and Singaporeans. No doubt the Chinese and the Indians will try too. Thought judging by the cluster-muck over the Commonwealth games doubt we have much to fear from the Indians.
Will Aussie aviaiton will slowly die? Hate to say it but probably true.
It was Dixon who nailed the coffin on Qantas and took home millions for doing so.
Under his watch Emirates gobbled up most of the Aus-Europe traffic. Etihaad and Qatar are picking up the scraps. Their labour costs are so low that competing against them is almost impossible. Pilot salaries are Ok but you have to live in the sandpit
The only market left is China and India. looks like that will be gobbled up by the Malaysians and Singaporeans. No doubt the Chinese and the Indians will try too. Thought judging by the cluster-muck over the Commonwealth games doubt we have much to fear from the Indians.
Will Aussie aviaiton will slowly die? Hate to say it but probably true.
I said in the beginning that Jetstar Asia was going to be a flop for the simple reason that there is nothing Qantas can offer Asia that Asia cannot produce cheaper and better for itself.
The entire "Qantas Group" idea was dreamed up so a bunch of narcissists could call themselves "Group General Managers". Doing that not only elevates their pay packets into the stratosphere it neatly provides one additional layer of insulation between themselves and their masters and the dirty coal face.
By definition it causes a diffusion of responsibility so that bad decisions cannot be tracked back to individuals as easily as they should be.
The entire "Qantas Group" idea was dreamed up so a bunch of narcissists could call themselves "Group General Managers". Doing that not only elevates their pay packets into the stratosphere it neatly provides one additional layer of insulation between themselves and their masters and the dirty coal face.
By definition it causes a diffusion of responsibility so that bad decisions cannot be tracked back to individuals as easily as they should be.
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If QF wanted Asian rates they shouldn't have put their Asia hub in SIN. They should have put it in Cambodia or Manila, which are far far far far FAR cheaper. Singapore has a host of schemes for Singaporeans who get things like 33% tax-deductible superannuation which can be used to pay for your mortgage, and first home owner subsidies of up to S$40k, and preferenti
al
Non residents do not enjoy any of these schemes and are completetreatment for local school placement. ly locked out of 90% of the housing market. As such, the cost of employing a skilled foreigner would typically skyrocket compared to hiring a skilled Singaporean. The entire tax advantage is gobbled up by high rents.
You couldn't even place your kids in a local school which is basically free, because priority would go to citizens, then PRs, then for whatever space that's left, foreigners. International schools cost in excess of $20k a year.
As such, the cost of hiring a foreigner to ensure he gets the same net of housing and education expense as a Singapore citizen, would probably be at least double that of the Singaporean.
Most companies in Singapore gladly hire foreigners from neighbouring countries to do things that Singaporeans refuse to do, like wait staff, refuse collection etc etc. However, many companies very very carefully evaluate if they will hire skilled foreigners, because hey, the Singaporean may refuse to wait tables for $1200 a month and the Chinese national would gladly do so, however there aren't a line of qualified Chinese nationals lining up at the immigration authority waiting to be pilots or engineers!
New Zealand pilots could earn 30% less than Aussie pilots, because the cost of living in NZ is quite a bit lower than Australia. The cost of living in Singapore for skilled foreigners is not by any stretch of imagination even close to what it is in Australia.
Oh yeah I'm a Singaporean so I know what I'm talking about (I hope!)
al Non residents do not enjoy any of these schemes and are completetreatment for local school placement. ly locked out of 90% of the housing market. As such, the cost of employing a skilled foreigner would typically skyrocket compared to hiring a skilled Singaporean. The entire tax advantage is gobbled up by high rents.
You couldn't even place your kids in a local school which is basically free, because priority would go to citizens, then PRs, then for whatever space that's left, foreigners. International schools cost in excess of $20k a year.
As such, the cost of hiring a foreigner to ensure he gets the same net of housing and education expense as a Singapore citizen, would probably be at least double that of the Singaporean.
Most companies in Singapore gladly hire foreigners from neighbouring countries to do things that Singaporeans refuse to do, like wait staff, refuse collection etc etc. However, many companies very very carefully evaluate if they will hire skilled foreigners, because hey, the Singaporean may refuse to wait tables for $1200 a month and the Chinese national would gladly do so, however there aren't a line of qualified Chinese nationals lining up at the immigration authority waiting to be pilots or engineers!
New Zealand pilots could earn 30% less than Aussie pilots, because the cost of living in NZ is quite a bit lower than Australia. The cost of living in Singapore for skilled foreigners is not by any stretch of imagination even close to what it is in Australia.
Oh yeah I'm a Singaporean so I know what I'm talking about (I hope!)
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Originally Posted by The illustrious Alan Joyce
.....a higher Australian dollar would mean bigger fuel bills
It is correct that Qantas buys its fuel in $US. Now is a fantastic time to convert $AU into $US.
He is probably alluding to the price of fuel rising when the US dollar falls, but this only reduces the savings. I think he is scaremongering a little.
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Definition of cuckoo land - A CEO pulling a package of millions and millions while his airline loses profit by the day.
Lucifer must still be laughing all the way to the bank !
It was Dixon who nailed the coffin on Qantas and took home millions for doing so.
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If QF wanted Asian rates they shouldn't have put their Asia hub in SIN
Singapore is an easy choice for lazy Australian airline executives on expenses as they relate to the comfy surroundings, (looks & feels like back home) probably a key Australian business weakness in S. E. Asia. Too frightened to explore new frontiers as they may speak a language other than English..... fascinating
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As for Asian rates, CX and SQ pay pilots a hell of a lot more than j*
Maybe the Jet* crew could go for the T&Cs of another Asian airline, Dragonair
Dragon seem to be able to reward their pilots handsomely whilst competing against every man and their dog in China, most of which pay absolute rubbish.Ive said it before, how much difference does paying the tech crew an extra $150/hr ( between them ) on an A/c that costs around 10K/hr to operate, make to the bottom line ? As much as paying some midget millions a year to pi55 the staff off ??
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Losing the point boys.
Once again we have been distracted from the real QF corporate goal. JQ Asia is a smokescreen at best and a basket case at worst. When have JQ (Aus) Pilots tried to negotiate JQ Asia or JQ Pacific salaries? NEVER!
This is about creating bases of connivance (sic) to crew JQ AUS (Aus AOC, AUS Aircraft, Aus routes) on Malaysian conditions (in SIN) whilst NOT paying to train the pilots (to a shall I say questionable standard as a certain Xtra L
ng hostie carrier) and forcing them to live in a city with a cost base exponentially higher than KL.
Don't lose focus and don't fall for the absurd but well rehersed distraction. Our message is:
1) That all pilots employed by Jetstar (or any entity created or contracted by Jetstar to supply pilots) operating Australian Registered Aircraft are employed under the Jetstar Pilot’s EBA 2008 and:
2) That all Australian flying by Jetstar Aircraft within Australia, and International Jetstar flights originating in Australia regardless of Aircraft Registration (i.e. JQ NZ, JQ Asia, JQ Pacific etc) be subject to Pilot terms and conditions of employment at least the equivalent of the Jetstar Pilot’s EBA 2008. For the avoidance of doubt the term ‘originating’ means any flight that leaves an Australian port for another Australian port or any flight that leaves an Australian port for an international port.
Don't let the message of 'Asian terms and conditions' distract you. Stay on point. Australian terms and conditions for Australian flying regardless of what dodgey artificial entity (Australian or Foreign shell company under Australian AOC) is created to justify the legitimacy of 'Asian pay and conditions'.
Once again we have been distracted from the real QF corporate goal. JQ Asia is a smokescreen at best and a basket case at worst. When have JQ (Aus) Pilots tried to negotiate JQ Asia or JQ Pacific salaries? NEVER!
This is about creating bases of connivance (sic) to crew JQ AUS (Aus AOC, AUS Aircraft, Aus routes) on Malaysian conditions (in SIN) whilst NOT paying to train the pilots (to a shall I say questionable standard as a certain Xtra L
ng hostie carrier) and forcing them to live in a city with a cost base exponentially higher than KL. Don't lose focus and don't fall for the absurd but well rehersed distraction. Our message is:
1) That all pilots employed by Jetstar (or any entity created or contracted by Jetstar to supply pilots) operating Australian Registered Aircraft are employed under the Jetstar Pilot’s EBA 2008 and:
2) That all Australian flying by Jetstar Aircraft within Australia, and International Jetstar flights originating in Australia regardless of Aircraft Registration (i.e. JQ NZ, JQ Asia, JQ Pacific etc) be subject to Pilot terms and conditions of employment at least the equivalent of the Jetstar Pilot’s EBA 2008. For the avoidance of doubt the term ‘originating’ means any flight that leaves an Australian port for another Australian port or any flight that leaves an Australian port for an international port.
Don't let the message of 'Asian terms and conditions' distract you. Stay on point. Australian terms and conditions for Australian flying regardless of what dodgey artificial entity (Australian or Foreign shell company under Australian AOC) is created to justify the legitimacy of 'Asian pay and conditions'.
Ive said it before, how much difference does paying the tech crew an extra $150/hr ( between them ) on an A/c that costs around 10K/hr to operate, make to the bottom line ?
Say $200,000 per year divided by 800 hours = $250 per hour
Say $150,000 per year divided by 800 hours = $187.50 per hour
A whopping saving of $62.50 per hour for the Captain (for example).
So if you pi$$ this person off they will cost you more than that operationally. Why not aim to keep the workforce happy, on side and working with you?
Why not, because management cannot reduce fuel costs very much, they cannot reduce the cost of spares, they cannot haggle air nav charges and airport fees but THEY CAN try to screw the crews. So that is what they do.
The above example shows how ridiculous it is when the aircraft costs $7-10,000 per hour to operate. Jesus, the depreciation on an owned airframe costs more than the crews do.
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mate I blew an extra $500 an hour out the back of the pipes because I wanted to get home early and the company is screwing my colleagues. Imagine how much I could save if they looked after us?
I think AJ is starting to show he is out of his depth here. There has been no real strategic descisions made by Qantas management recently, except those made to counter other airlines moves.Qantas remains basically stagnant, while Jetstar expands, because that is all he knows.
VB have realised that the money is back in the premium product and are about to give the Rat a bit of a fright, hence the rumours of QF going back into the Gold Coast and Hamiltin Island and other ports to counter the VB push. Once again just countering another airlines moves.
QF will continue to make paltry profits while it concentrates on the low yield, low price end of the market. But hey, thats all they have experience in now, all their experienced people in the higher yield products are at VB! Go figure!
VB have realised that the money is back in the premium product and are about to give the Rat a bit of a fright, hence the rumours of QF going back into the Gold Coast and Hamiltin Island and other ports to counter the VB push. Once again just countering another airlines moves.
QF will continue to make paltry profits while it concentrates on the low yield, low price end of the market. But hey, thats all they have experience in now, all their experienced people in the higher yield products are at VB! Go figure!
Relax guys, just tell AJ to have a look at what's going on in Tiger Singapore at the moment. On 1 October nearly half of the flights where cancelled, mostly due to lack of pilots. Technical difficulties was given as the reason for some of the cancellations, but shortage of captains is responsible for four to five cancellations out of around thirty flights most days.
Tell him to call Tony Davis and ask him how well his plans for paying "Asian rates" went. He's lost over half of his skippers in the last six months or so. "No problem" he says "We'll just get Indonesians in." Out of the first five, three failed Air Law and are limited to observation flights on the jump seat until they obtain the required percentage in the exam. Now add in a requirement to have a pass in human factors on your original licence or pass the exam in Singapore. Not easy with basic level 4 English.
All right then "Let's try European pilots" Civil Aviation Authority of Singapore love the JAA ticket and these guys are mostly high standard. Not many problems with the ones Tiger have had so far. Unfortunately they don't come cheap, currently offering a +33% premium on present captains pay, but at least the aircraft will be in the air making money vs sitting on the ground generating bad publicity. Have a guess how the present flight crew feel about this.
Just tell AJ if he doesn't pay proper rates to his pilots, he'll end up in the same situation.
Here endeth the lesson, go in peace.
Tell him to call Tony Davis and ask him how well his plans for paying "Asian rates" went. He's lost over half of his skippers in the last six months or so. "No problem" he says "We'll just get Indonesians in." Out of the first five, three failed Air Law and are limited to observation flights on the jump seat until they obtain the required percentage in the exam. Now add in a requirement to have a pass in human factors on your original licence or pass the exam in Singapore. Not easy with basic level 4 English.
All right then "Let's try European pilots" Civil Aviation Authority of Singapore love the JAA ticket and these guys are mostly high standard. Not many problems with the ones Tiger have had so far. Unfortunately they don't come cheap, currently offering a +33% premium on present captains pay, but at least the aircraft will be in the air making money vs sitting on the ground generating bad publicity. Have a guess how the present flight crew feel about this.
Just tell AJ if he doesn't pay proper rates to his pilots, he'll end up in the same situation.
Here endeth the lesson, go in peace.
Last edited by krismiler; 2nd Oct 2010 at 01:49.
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This is what they are paying......
We are currently recruiting for 7 months contract with our client based in Singapore.
The conditions and requirement are as follows:
Requirements:
Pilot ME 3000 hours
PIC on A320 1000 hours
Last flight within the last 11 months
HPL (Human Performance and Limitations ) course and exam completed
LPC/ OPC checks (2 SIM checks) completed in the last 12 months
Roster pattern and schedule:
Not a fixed pattern, minimum of 8 days off in every 28 rostered days
90 scheduled block hours per month
Other:
Accommodation allowance of S$3000 per month payable
Flights provided at the beginning and the end of the contract
Fee:
S$ 9000 in the 1st month paid via Ltd Company whilst converting your license to Singapore ATPL
S$ 18000 thereafter per month paid via Ltd Company
Overtime is payable over 90 scheduled block hours at S$200 per scheduled block hour
We are currently recruiting for 7 months contract with our client based in Singapore.
The conditions and requirement are as follows:
Requirements:
Pilot ME 3000 hours
PIC on A320 1000 hours
Last flight within the last 11 months
HPL (Human Performance and Limitations ) course and exam completed
LPC/ OPC checks (2 SIM checks) completed in the last 12 months
Roster pattern and schedule:
Not a fixed pattern, minimum of 8 days off in every 28 rostered days
90 scheduled block hours per month
Other:
Accommodation allowance of S$3000 per month payable
Flights provided at the beginning and the end of the contract
Fee:
S$ 9000 in the 1st month paid via Ltd Company whilst converting your license to Singapore ATPL
S$ 18000 thereafter per month paid via Ltd Company
Overtime is payable over 90 scheduled block hours at S$200 per scheduled block hour
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Why not aim to keep the workforce happy, on side and working with you?
An old business basic that appears to have been forgotten these days by the non tech boys and girls up top. The only technology they seem to understand is MS office excel. Too many of them feed off this by paying themselves huge bonuses for their new found knowledge.
They have also forgotten, airlines are still a people business, look after all the team and not just a few wallets at the top.
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If the Indonesians are failing the exams big time, one really does wonder about the quality of civil aviation in Indonesia in general.
Maybe Tony Davis is starting his proposed Thai Tiger Airways to he can throw all his new Indonesian recruits there and base more aircraft in Thailand, to bypass these pesky CAAS folks!
Plus Singapore is tightening the screws on foreign immigration due to discontent from Singapore citizens on now only forming a mere 60% of the resident population.
If costs were all JQ cared about, they should have located their Asian hub in Bangkok or Ho Chi Minh City. Unfortunately, there isn't a ready supply of skilled English speaking labour, or a stable political environment, or business-friendly environments to speak of. Of course, JQ could possibly pay their way past pesky regulations in those countries, if they had the right amount of money or the right contacts.
There is a premium to be paid for being located in Singapore, and there is a premium to be paid for having a skilled workforce. The biggest advantage to the QF group from the Singapore hub through 3K is the ability to use Singapore ASAs to fly beyond Singapore to Asia and Europe as a designated Singapore carrier. The Singapore hub will also make scheduling more efficient.
However, I think QF was hoping it would come cheap - and they are now realising it's not that much cheaper than back home.
Maybe Tony Davis is starting his proposed Thai Tiger Airways to he can throw all his new Indonesian recruits there and base more aircraft in Thailand, to bypass these pesky CAAS folks!
Plus Singapore is tightening the screws on foreign immigration due to discontent from Singapore citizens on now only forming a mere 60% of the resident population.
If costs were all JQ cared about, they should have located their Asian hub in Bangkok or Ho Chi Minh City. Unfortunately, there isn't a ready supply of skilled English speaking labour, or a stable political environment, or business-friendly environments to speak of. Of course, JQ could possibly pay their way past pesky regulations in those countries, if they had the right amount of money or the right contacts.
There is a premium to be paid for being located in Singapore, and there is a premium to be paid for having a skilled workforce. The biggest advantage to the QF group from the Singapore hub through 3K is the ability to use Singapore ASAs to fly beyond Singapore to Asia and Europe as a designated Singapore carrier. The Singapore hub will also make scheduling more efficient.
However, I think QF was hoping it would come cheap - and they are now realising it's not that much cheaper than back home.
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There is a premium to be paid for being located in Singapore, and there is a premium to be paid for having a skilled workforce.
...
However, I think QF was hoping it would come cheap - and they are now realising it's not that much cheaper than back home.
...
However, I think QF was hoping it would come cheap - and they are now realising it's not that much cheaper than back home.
It may be cheap for qf/j* but anyone taking a postion there will ultimately pay dearly.
I very much doubt you will save much, if any.
Last edited by Mr Pilot 2007; 2nd Oct 2010 at 11:07.
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the right contacts
Although futile (JQ seem hell bent on SIN) but I believe Bangkok is not too much of a culture shock for foreign pilots and the accommodation is probably better and cheaper for crews, other words, more dollars for flight crews in their back pockets. There are also a lot of International schools available to send the kids, again cheaper than SIN. Quality food and groceries are much cheaper than Singapore.
JQ working out of Thailand would have access to a larger population base Thailand, (traveling more than ever these days) but can feed to SIN with the existing JQ setup and of course QF as well.
I can confirm, it would be probably be easier to get valid ASAs in Thailand (contrary to the belief securing ASAs is difficult) provided that JQ did indeed source the right contacts which are not that difficult to find. I am also told that airport charges are also negotiable again with the right contacts.
As I see it, QF and JQ both based in Singapore is really putting all your eggs in one basket, something that I think QF management should consider.
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The difference in basing between Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia etc, and Singapore, is that the Singaporeans get things done and make things happen in order to ensure the investment comes to their country.
The others come with a plethora of nonstop hidden problems that basically stem back to corruption within those countries.
Look at the mauling JQ have received, and are continuing to receive in Vietnam. They would have to be insane to make their Asian hub HCMC.
I do agree with TIMA9X on most of his points regarding Thailand, however I think Singapore gives the Australian senior management a nice security blanket that what they have negotiated is what they will receive.
GB
The others come with a plethora of nonstop hidden problems that basically stem back to corruption within those countries.
Look at the mauling JQ have received, and are continuing to receive in Vietnam. They would have to be insane to make their Asian hub HCMC.
I do agree with TIMA9X on most of his points regarding Thailand, however I think Singapore gives the Australian senior management a nice security blanket that what they have negotiated is what they will receive.
GB