Merged: Pacific Blue infringement in NZQN?
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Merged: Pacific Blue infringement in NZQN?
Probe into Pacific Blue flight
NZPA July 27, 2010, 7:15 am
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The Civil Aviation Authority is investigating after the lives of 140 passengers and crew were reportedly put at risk when a Pacific Blue pilot allegedly ignored visual flight rules and took off in darkness from Queenstown airport.
Witnesses of the June 22 flight said the Boeing 737 flew dangerously low to avoid low fog and an incoming front, Radio New Zealand reported toay.
One witness said the plane did not climb as it should have, but flew at under 1000 feet (300 metres) as it negotiated its way out of the mountains in thick cloud.
A Pacific Blue spokesman said the flight took off outside daylight hours and the company would cooperate with the investigation.
Probe into Pacific Blue flight - Yahoo!Xtra News
NZPA July 27, 2010, 7:15 am
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The Civil Aviation Authority is investigating after the lives of 140 passengers and crew were reportedly put at risk when a Pacific Blue pilot allegedly ignored visual flight rules and took off in darkness from Queenstown airport.
Witnesses of the June 22 flight said the Boeing 737 flew dangerously low to avoid low fog and an incoming front, Radio New Zealand reported toay.
One witness said the plane did not climb as it should have, but flew at under 1000 feet (300 metres) as it negotiated its way out of the mountains in thick cloud.
A Pacific Blue spokesman said the flight took off outside daylight hours and the company would cooperate with the investigation.
Probe into Pacific Blue flight - Yahoo!Xtra News
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NZ CAA investigating Pacific Blue flight ex-Queenstown
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Didn't take long to make it onto pprune! Once apon a time that sort of thing was commonplace in QN, now there is no tolerance for anything left of centre..probably a good thing really. Popeye Lucas would be turning in his grave
I see the crew have been stood down. The company if they were going to do it should have done it the next day not a couple of months after the fact!
I wonder when Jet Star's little approach shenanigans will become public. If true then that's scary.
I wonder when Jet Star's little approach shenanigans will become public. If true then that's scary.
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I see the crew have been stood down. The company if they were going to do it should have done it the next day not a couple of months after the fact!
This was not quickly reported at all..... this incident occured nearly 4 weeks ago, I personally knew of it about a week after it happened thru crewroom scuttlebutt.
S2K
Fine, the same crewroom scuttlebut that informed me of this incident also told me that a Jetstar flight advised ATC they were going to fly the VOR approach and then proceded on down the RNP approach. Which I think is just a little unusual.
Last edited by belowMDA; 27th Jul 2010 at 01:13.
I didn't even know Pac Blue flew in there. How long have they been doing that?
I wonder if the pilots recieve the same level of training as the Air NZ and Qantas pilots do, ie a 'Queenstown Ground school' and specific 'Queenstown Simulator Training' ? They probably do , can anyone confirm the extent of special training they get?
Taking off after the 30 mins to ECT limit smacks of commercial pressure to me (I'm not saying thats an excuse).
I wonder if the pilots recieve the same level of training as the Air NZ and Qantas pilots do, ie a 'Queenstown Ground school' and specific 'Queenstown Simulator Training' ? They probably do , can anyone confirm the extent of special training they get?
Taking off after the 30 mins to ECT limit smacks of commercial pressure to me (I'm not saying thats an excuse).
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ZQN ATC had a fit when the a/c departed so PB were aware asap that the incident occured.
How did ATC bring themselves to let them Taxi or T/O?
Fine, the same crewroom scuttlebut that informed me of this incident also told me that a Jetstar flight advised ATC they were going to fly the VOR approach and then proceded on down the RNP approach. Which I think is just a little unusual.
a) It was an RNP approach that then switched to circling in the basin
b) It was a non revenue validation flight
ZQN Tower are pretty damn good, there to help, and given the diversity of approaches, trials, operators and departures coupled with WX do a fanbloodytastic job I think.
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"smacks of commercial pressure to me" at Pac Blue realy ummm?
The CEO MP put out news letter saying he "expects" all crew including pilots even if you are on duty travel to help clean the A/C on turn arounds.
No coffie stops in the morning this may affect OTP...
Googe OTP and pacific Blue they are always banging on about it,looks like they didn't make OTP that day "Just a "few" minuts past ect", according to their spokesman"
They now have a fuel saving commitie made up of pilots and managment we all know the type; which has cut fuel to the bone min gas everywere not even an allounce for a standard IF app if you want more gas you must have a reason...
Crikey Blog...
One of the biggest risks to airline safety today is pilots who think like accountants or shareholders rather than as professional pilots. Pacific Blue needs to do more than ‘co-operate’ after being caught breaking the regulations in a serious and material manner. It needs to audit its safety standards, and refine and enforce a safety culture that prevents pilots from endangering not only jet loads of people, but its reputation and brand value.
The CEO MP put out news letter saying he "expects" all crew including pilots even if you are on duty travel to help clean the A/C on turn arounds.
No coffie stops in the morning this may affect OTP...
Googe OTP and pacific Blue they are always banging on about it,looks like they didn't make OTP that day "Just a "few" minuts past ect", according to their spokesman"
They now have a fuel saving commitie made up of pilots and managment we all know the type; which has cut fuel to the bone min gas everywere not even an allounce for a standard IF app if you want more gas you must have a reason...
Crikey Blog...
One of the biggest risks to airline safety today is pilots who think like accountants or shareholders rather than as professional pilots. Pacific Blue needs to do more than ‘co-operate’ after being caught breaking the regulations in a serious and material manner. It needs to audit its safety standards, and refine and enforce a safety culture that prevents pilots from endangering not only jet loads of people, but its reputation and brand value.
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if you want more gas you must have a reason...
which has cut fuel to the bone min gas everywere not even an
allounce for a standard IF app
allounce for a standard IF app
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Huh? "Cleared for take off runway 05.... and boy are you in trouble!"
How did ATC bring themselves to let them Taxi or T/O?
How did ATC bring themselves to let them Taxi or T/O?
How I heard it was that ATC were still in the tower (probably off watch packing their lunch boxes into their bags) when the a/c took off.
A crew from my company were in the taxi heading to the hotel (they had missed the cutoff to depart due weather) when they observed the a/c heading towards Rat Point.
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IF app if you want more gas you must have a reason...
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Keeping an open mind, I decided to look up some things for myself.
According to Airways, ECT on the 22nd of June was 1744 local. The media reports put the departure time at 1725ish. Outside of the ECT -30 limit yes, but still daylight. Is the 30 minute limit regulatory or self imposed?
The AIP Supplement puts ATC on duty until 1800. If I can remember correctly, a tower closing off greater than 20? minutes early requires a NOTAM to be put out advising of the early close (sure a Controller will correct me if wrong). The Poindexter in me also found this gem in the AIP.
NZQN AD 2 - 31.1 makes mention that ATC must be in attendance for CAT B and C arrivals and departures. Considering the above I would be surprised to find the tower was off watch.
If they have broken the rules I'm sure it will come out in the wash and appropriate action will need to be taken however, as anyone in any industry dealing with reports from the public knows, eye witnesses are well known for being extremely unreliable especially when time has elapsed from the event.
According to Airways, ECT on the 22nd of June was 1744 local. The media reports put the departure time at 1725ish. Outside of the ECT -30 limit yes, but still daylight. Is the 30 minute limit regulatory or self imposed?
The AIP Supplement puts ATC on duty until 1800. If I can remember correctly, a tower closing off greater than 20? minutes early requires a NOTAM to be put out advising of the early close (sure a Controller will correct me if wrong). The Poindexter in me also found this gem in the AIP.
NZQN AD 2 - 31.1 makes mention that ATC must be in attendance for CAT B and C arrivals and departures. Considering the above I would be surprised to find the tower was off watch.
If they have broken the rules I'm sure it will come out in the wash and appropriate action will need to be taken however, as anyone in any industry dealing with reports from the public knows, eye witnesses are well known for being extremely unreliable especially when time has elapsed from the event.
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If I can remember correctly, a tower closing off greater than 20? minutes early requires a NOTAM to be put out advising of the early close
ATC don't generally knock off 30mins prior to NOTAMed hours of service if there are still sked flights coming or going.
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Sky Cops
Below MDA, why don't you just concentrate on operating your own aircraft safely and leave safety regulation to CAANZ. I have personally observed a certain kiwi operator doing split arse turns on to the reciprical runway following a MAP in ZQN....and no, we didn't call CAANZ to report it..
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I used to fly bugsmashers out of QN and I'm trying to see what was wrong here other than the 10 minute late departure..
When the eyewitness says the aircraft flew low out to a low cloud base before circling behind calvin heights..that sounds like a typical Bowen RNAV departure with a cloud base of 300' and 3.7km vis. It IS for approved operators only..is that not PB?
When the eyewitness says the aircraft flew low out to a low cloud base before circling behind calvin heights..that sounds like a typical Bowen RNAV departure with a cloud base of 300' and 3.7km vis. It IS for approved operators only..is that not PB?
I wonder if the pilots recieve the same level of training as the Air NZ and Qantas pilots do, ie a 'Queenstown Ground school' and specific 'Queenstown Simulator Training' ? They probably do , can anyone confirm the extent of special training they get?
I ask because my feeling is that cost cutting over the last decade or so is eating into our safety standards (as an industry) and I would be interested to know if this is the case here. Running sims and ground schools for a specific airport is expensive business and I imagine it would be tempting for a low cost airline to skimp a bit on this. If they haven't skimped on this then I doubt they are going to be making much money in Qtown with AirNZ, Jetstar and Qantas all serving it already.
If they have provided less than the other airlines provide to their crews then I feel for the crew involved and the company is reaping what they have sown.
Framer