Has the AFAP ever had a decent win?
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Has the AFAP ever had a decent win?
just wondering, in the wake of lots of very negative views, whether the AFAP has EVER had a decent win in Australian aviation history? or have they consistently made a bit of noise then folded?
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Depends on what you mean by "Decent win"?
There are many individuals who've had reason to thank the AFAP for chasing back-pay, non-payment of xxx, etc.
Similarly, there are many individuals who've had the AFAP represent them successfully in disputes against their employers.
On the collective front, the feds recently have facilitated some very good EBA's, especially with some of the helicopter outfits.
Last year, the Feds drove the FWA to make a ruling that gave Eastern and Sunstate pilots to change companies (within the Qantas group) without having to take three months off work. A big win for us; especially the Sunstate guys who wanted to transfer to Melbourne/Sydney!
There are plenty more. But you wont hear about them here.
Here, you'll mostly get ill-informed comment and general negativity.
A good example being the AFAP trying to improve the T&C's of VA Crz FO's. They've only just started their action, and there is a queue on Prune to shoot them down.
DIVOSH!
There are many individuals who've had reason to thank the AFAP for chasing back-pay, non-payment of xxx, etc.
Similarly, there are many individuals who've had the AFAP represent them successfully in disputes against their employers.
On the collective front, the feds recently have facilitated some very good EBA's, especially with some of the helicopter outfits.
Last year, the Feds drove the FWA to make a ruling that gave Eastern and Sunstate pilots to change companies (within the Qantas group) without having to take three months off work. A big win for us; especially the Sunstate guys who wanted to transfer to Melbourne/Sydney!
There are plenty more. But you wont hear about them here.
Here, you'll mostly get ill-informed comment and general negativity.
A good example being the AFAP trying to improve the T&C's of VA Crz FO's. They've only just started their action, and there is a queue on Prune to shoot them down.
DIVOSH!
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Wins are in the eye of the beholder.
Let’s look at the day to day stuff that goes unreported on salary, allowance, unfair dismissal, accident/incident support etc...
Whilst I could go to many cases to prove our worth that is not the point of the exercise is it. Let’s just slag the Feds and hide under the rock like a slimy viper rather than be constructive.
It is easy to be critical but the challenge is getting pilots to get off their collective backsides and working together instead of constant sniping at each other let alone the organisations formed to improve their lot.
The Federation does not look after one employer it covers hundreds in every part of the Australian industry whether it be Airline, GA, Heli, Aero Med, Flight Instruction and more.
Look at the history pilots formed under one umbrella in 1938 and grew into a strong and respected body. The Qantas pilots walked out in 1981 and post the dispute a number of splinter groups based on single employers formed.
On each occasion this has weakened the collective strength of professional pilots.
Does this help the collective lot? NO
Will it help pilots going forward in the future ? NO
Again throw your spite and enjoy the anonymity or perhaps one day grow some balls and be prepared to put your hand up and be elected by your fellow pilots to represent the views expressed under one umbrella.
As a body we often have divergent views but in the end we achieve by working together as professional pilots irrespective of who we are working for. The policies in our organisation are developed by pilots for pilots and the staff is tasked accordingly.
Keep fighting amongst yourselves and the boss always wins as your leaving him/her alone.
Lawrie Cox
Manager – Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots
Let’s look at the day to day stuff that goes unreported on salary, allowance, unfair dismissal, accident/incident support etc...
Whilst I could go to many cases to prove our worth that is not the point of the exercise is it. Let’s just slag the Feds and hide under the rock like a slimy viper rather than be constructive.
It is easy to be critical but the challenge is getting pilots to get off their collective backsides and working together instead of constant sniping at each other let alone the organisations formed to improve their lot.
The Federation does not look after one employer it covers hundreds in every part of the Australian industry whether it be Airline, GA, Heli, Aero Med, Flight Instruction and more.
Look at the history pilots formed under one umbrella in 1938 and grew into a strong and respected body. The Qantas pilots walked out in 1981 and post the dispute a number of splinter groups based on single employers formed.
On each occasion this has weakened the collective strength of professional pilots.
Does this help the collective lot? NO
Will it help pilots going forward in the future ? NO
Again throw your spite and enjoy the anonymity or perhaps one day grow some balls and be prepared to put your hand up and be elected by your fellow pilots to represent the views expressed under one umbrella.
As a body we often have divergent views but in the end we achieve by working together as professional pilots irrespective of who we are working for. The policies in our organisation are developed by pilots for pilots and the staff is tasked accordingly.
Keep fighting amongst yourselves and the boss always wins as your leaving him/her alone.
Lawrie Cox
Manager – Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots
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The Qantas pilots walked out in 1981 and post the dispute a number of splinter groups based on single employers formed
Let’s just slag the Feds and hide under the rock like a slimy viper rather than be constructive.
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As one who was peripherally involved at the time, it is my recollection that the walk out was not as a result of threats either real or implied. It was more a petulant dummy spit by Messrs. Westwood and Cant, who (not without cause) had had a gutful of sitting through arguments about Domestic matters, and felt that the Qantas pilots could do better for themselves, by themselves.
The split had a significant influence on the future direction of the AFAP, as from that, the concept of pilot councils, operating under the umbrella organisation, evolved. That structure exists to this day. That structure has allowed individual pilot groups to pursue their own interests whilst having the backing and resources of the organisation.
As to the question of whether or not the AFAP has had any significant wins, consider that post WW2 pilots had no representation. From that evolved the AFAP, and through that organisation Australian pilots domestic and international sat fairly high in the rankings of salary and conditions. Within the IRC, the government, at the instigation of the AFAP, recognising the unique and specific conditions of the industry, appointed a dedicated commissioner the Flight Crew Officers Industrial Tribunal. From that Tribunal came the framework of pay and conditions that put Australian pilots in a strong and healthy condition. Then came that scumbag Hawke.
But the advances achieved by the AFAP are not just in the area of terms and conditions. The AFAP has always been active within the technical area. Many who read this forum may be unaware of the contributions, made by AFAP volunteers, to the regulatory structure and safety of our industry not just in Australia but worldwide. AFAP members have been involved at all levels up to and including ICAO panels, in setting the standards that have led to the safety standards our industry now enjoys. At a local level AFAP had representation, access, and input to all significant legislative and safety related matters. AFAP opinion was actively sought, on most matters relating to aviation. Then came that scumbag Hawke.
AFAP had the foresight to set-up the AAP MBF, an organisation that is run by pilots for pilots, to ensure the welfare of its members. The success and reputation of the AAPMBF is such that organisations across the world have sought assistance from AAP MBF, in the design and management of funds for other pilot bodies. Through astute control and management that organisation has grown to a substantial Fund that controls a bit short of $100 million of members funds and assets. Despite multiple attempts, by commercial entities, to compete AAP MBF is, by way of it's overall cost and it’s portability, as yet unassailed in its benefits.
Unfortunately we see here on this forum a few of the aggrieved. Those whose expectations of the AFAP, outstripped the reality or the result that they considered, or could expect as, their due.
The organisation was never intended to fight for those who are not prepared to do the right thing. It was intended to ensure that those who have been wronged receive “due process”.
Given the diverse interests of the membership, the AFAP has an extremely difficult job trying to ensure everyone gets a fair shake. I for one believe they perform that task well in extremely difficult circumstances.
The split had a significant influence on the future direction of the AFAP, as from that, the concept of pilot councils, operating under the umbrella organisation, evolved. That structure exists to this day. That structure has allowed individual pilot groups to pursue their own interests whilst having the backing and resources of the organisation.
As to the question of whether or not the AFAP has had any significant wins, consider that post WW2 pilots had no representation. From that evolved the AFAP, and through that organisation Australian pilots domestic and international sat fairly high in the rankings of salary and conditions. Within the IRC, the government, at the instigation of the AFAP, recognising the unique and specific conditions of the industry, appointed a dedicated commissioner the Flight Crew Officers Industrial Tribunal. From that Tribunal came the framework of pay and conditions that put Australian pilots in a strong and healthy condition. Then came that scumbag Hawke.
But the advances achieved by the AFAP are not just in the area of terms and conditions. The AFAP has always been active within the technical area. Many who read this forum may be unaware of the contributions, made by AFAP volunteers, to the regulatory structure and safety of our industry not just in Australia but worldwide. AFAP members have been involved at all levels up to and including ICAO panels, in setting the standards that have led to the safety standards our industry now enjoys. At a local level AFAP had representation, access, and input to all significant legislative and safety related matters. AFAP opinion was actively sought, on most matters relating to aviation. Then came that scumbag Hawke.
AFAP had the foresight to set-up the AAP MBF, an organisation that is run by pilots for pilots, to ensure the welfare of its members. The success and reputation of the AAPMBF is such that organisations across the world have sought assistance from AAP MBF, in the design and management of funds for other pilot bodies. Through astute control and management that organisation has grown to a substantial Fund that controls a bit short of $100 million of members funds and assets. Despite multiple attempts, by commercial entities, to compete AAP MBF is, by way of it's overall cost and it’s portability, as yet unassailed in its benefits.
Unfortunately we see here on this forum a few of the aggrieved. Those whose expectations of the AFAP, outstripped the reality or the result that they considered, or could expect as, their due.
The organisation was never intended to fight for those who are not prepared to do the right thing. It was intended to ensure that those who have been wronged receive “due process”.
Given the diverse interests of the membership, the AFAP has an extremely difficult job trying to ensure everyone gets a fair shake. I for one believe they perform that task well in extremely difficult circumstances.
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As one who was peripherally involved at the time, it is my recollection that the walk out was not as a result of threats either real or implied. It was more a petulant dummy spit by Messrs. Westwood and Cant,
Try circumventing of AFAP route protection policy (Ansett to Singapore).
Try Melbourne office inteference in Sydney office operations.
Try AFAP executive (read domestic pilots) inteference in QF pilot business.
Try Ansett domination of AFAP due to its branch structure.
Try QF pilots paying 60% of AFAP income but getting <30% of vote.
Try promises made to correct all of the above but not implemented.
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Go Laurie Cox, your a Champion.
As per your award...
The award? WTF
What sort of di@33heads are paying money to be part of your gang?
I earned 125k in 1990 as an F/O with no AFAP connection ..
And now The F/O 's are on 105K for the same job in 2010.
As per AFAP claim
Not sure if you care cause your clearing 300K plus as a rep for those 2500 plus pilots.
Whatever
As per your award...
The award? WTF
What sort of di@33heads are paying money to be part of your gang?
I earned 125k in 1990 as an F/O with no AFAP connection ..
And now The F/O 's are on 105K for the same job in 2010.
As per AFAP claim
Not sure if you care cause your clearing 300K plus as a rep for those 2500 plus pilots.
Whatever
Last edited by tiptoeturkey; 3rd Jun 2010 at 21:42.
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I too have found the brown text which obviously makes my ranting asertions infallable & cerebrally superior of all hereafter.
Why is there a general assumption that AFAP deniers' have either never been actively involved in the AFAP or are cerebral minnows? In my experience it's quite the opposite.
OMG, OMG, OMG, they did? WOW this is huge, I'll bet all the Sunny's Pilots' (Pilot's formerly known as sunnies pilots) are absolutely thrilled at this spectacular gain. So can Qlink pilot's now transfer to mainline? 
I take back every negative thing that I've ever said about our illustrious union (federation)
Why is there a general assumption that AFAP deniers' have either never been actively involved in the AFAP or are cerebral minnows? In my experience it's quite the opposite.
Last year, the Feds drove the FWA to make a ruling that gave Eastern and Sunstate pilots to change companies (within the Qantas group) without having to take three months off work. A big win for us; especially the Sunstate guys who wanted to transfer to Melbourne/Sydney!
I take back every negative thing that I've ever said about our illustrious union (federation)
Folks,
Wombat Watcher has a number of the points right, there are more. It was no dummy spit, Westwood had almost 100% backing.
Greame Cant devoted an extraordinary amount of his private life to the welfare of his fellow pilots, from the time he was a S/O until he retired. How many of you have done that ???
I was there, in the middle of the whole thing, it became impossible to live with the domestic's attitude.
Qantas had to live with cost competition in the real world, not the cosy two airline policy world of Ansett and the National Airlines Commission ( by whatever trading name at the time).
Going along with "AFAP Policy" would have made QF hopelessly uncompetitive.
Ansett is gone, and Australian Airlines was broke when QF took it over, is there a message here somewhere.
Tootle pip!!
PS: AFAP did have one big win, the introduction of the "North American Contract" in the '60's.
Wombat Watcher has a number of the points right, there are more. It was no dummy spit, Westwood had almost 100% backing.
Greame Cant devoted an extraordinary amount of his private life to the welfare of his fellow pilots, from the time he was a S/O until he retired. How many of you have done that ???
I was there, in the middle of the whole thing, it became impossible to live with the domestic's attitude.
Qantas had to live with cost competition in the real world, not the cosy two airline policy world of Ansett and the National Airlines Commission ( by whatever trading name at the time).
Going along with "AFAP Policy" would have made QF hopelessly uncompetitive.
Ansett is gone, and Australian Airlines was broke when QF took it over, is there a message here somewhere.
Tootle pip!!
PS: AFAP did have one big win, the introduction of the "North American Contract" in the '60's.
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No results found for infallable: Did you mean infallible?
If brown text OBVIOUSLY makes YOU feel less cerebrally superior, then you probably are.
Also, don't assume anything on an internet forum is infallable. Pardon me, I mean, infallible. That is also OBVIOUS.
Also, don't assume anything on an internet forum is infallable. Pardon me, I mean, infallible. That is also OBVIOUS.
Last edited by I-Felt-Her; 4th Jun 2010 at 10:10.
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Hey Turkey
Don't know what your on but i would avoid the random testing as you might be in a bit of bother.
I will have to go and talk to the fianance committee about my contract as you obviuosly know more about it than me or the missus. If they dont pay up including the backpay i guess i will have to go to the Fair Work Ombudsman to recover it.
Nah i have a better idea what about i just get on a web page rumour site and throw a bit $hit around and see if it sticks. There that will make me feel better you muppet.
Back to the real world.
The Qantas pilots left when they couldn't get their own way and the Company partially funded this up till they withdrew the arrangement a couple of years ago and then Qantas pilots found out about having to deal with management that dont want to talk to you. Its working so well i am informed.
By the way the vote for the split was not 100% it was 65 - 35 and at least those who oppposed and were in the miniority supported the formation once it was clear there was a majority.
That is the point i am trying to get across we are not perfect, none of us, but by continuing to splinter and one group attempting to dictate over the others we will go further backwards.
A professional pilot is one that works for all pilots not just in your company or you are better because you an airline pilot. We have professionals in all areas Ag pilots, Helicopter, flight instruction, police, fire spotters, air ambulance, charter, corporate, regional, airline (domestic & international). As soon as you state that you are better than the other guy/girl then the argument is mostly lost.
Now back to my lost hundreds of thousands.
Lawrie Cox
Manager - Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots
Don't know what your on but i would avoid the random testing as you might be in a bit of bother.
I will have to go and talk to the fianance committee about my contract as you obviuosly know more about it than me or the missus. If they dont pay up including the backpay i guess i will have to go to the Fair Work Ombudsman to recover it.
Nah i have a better idea what about i just get on a web page rumour site and throw a bit $hit around and see if it sticks. There that will make me feel better you muppet.
Back to the real world.
The Qantas pilots left when they couldn't get their own way and the Company partially funded this up till they withdrew the arrangement a couple of years ago and then Qantas pilots found out about having to deal with management that dont want to talk to you. Its working so well i am informed.
By the way the vote for the split was not 100% it was 65 - 35 and at least those who oppposed and were in the miniority supported the formation once it was clear there was a majority.
That is the point i am trying to get across we are not perfect, none of us, but by continuing to splinter and one group attempting to dictate over the others we will go further backwards.
A professional pilot is one that works for all pilots not just in your company or you are better because you an airline pilot. We have professionals in all areas Ag pilots, Helicopter, flight instruction, police, fire spotters, air ambulance, charter, corporate, regional, airline (domestic & international). As soon as you state that you are better than the other guy/girl then the argument is mostly lost.
Now back to my lost hundreds of thousands.
Lawrie Cox
Manager - Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots
Last edited by Lawrie Cox; 4th Jun 2010 at 03:36.
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If brown text OBVIOUSLY makes YOU feel less cerebrally superior, then you probably are.
Also, don't assume anything on an internet forum is infallable. Pardon me, I mean, infallible. That is also OBVIOUS.
Also, don't assume anything on an internet forum is infallable. Pardon me, I mean, infallible. That is also OBVIOUS.
By transferring material from PPRune to your hate website etc, I can only assume that your nom de plume was created to be killed off by a moderator in an attempt to become a glorious martyr in your bizarre cyber kingdom.
Well good luck to you and i hope you get your 50 cyber virgins.
BTW love that bit on your website that explains how GA pilots don't earn enough (Pay enough) to be able to expect any union support/presence of any sort. Problem is that GA pilots become airline pilots with big salaries & long memories.
Last edited by psycho joe; 4th Jun 2010 at 02:38.
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I wonder what would happen if the AFAP amalgamated with the TWU ie like a branch of the TWU...
It would make them an immensely more powerful and effective organisation.
Could probably go a long way to stopping people working for free (cadetships)
It would make them an immensely more powerful and effective organisation.
Could probably go a long way to stopping people working for free (cadetships)
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and the Company partially funded this up
Fitzsimons and Coysh probably told you that, but not correct.
Qantas guaranteed the AIPA Loss of Licence scheme until it was up and running, at no cost to Qantas. Pilots who weren't interested in the politics only cared about the AFAP LOL scheme. If the pilot wasn't a member of the AFAP then he couldn't be a member of the Mutual benefit Fund. Westwood needed to cover this point off to get those pilots to vote "yes".
Cant actually opposed the breakaway as he was the VP International and put himself at odds with the Overseas branch so it is inaccurate and unfair to attribute anything in the breakaway to him. Yes, he jumped ship when the majority voted to go.