V Australia challenged by AFAP for CR FO pay
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It seems that AFAP can forsee that there may have been an obvious legal breach of the Fair Work Act regarding (back?)pay, and are actively pursuing it while the three V Australia VIPA Reps are not!!
You have to pick your battles.
I am the first to support the CFO's in their ongoing endeavor to improve their T&C's and VIPA has a clear strategy in place to achieve just that.
Semantics is not the surest way to sway a judge (or deputy commissioner), though. Barking up the wrong tree could prove to be a very costly exercise. Please try to explain in layman's terms the difference between the job description of a SO with QANTAS and a CFO with VA?
Yeah, I thought you might struggle with that one.
The job TITLE is of little significance and just because a "Cruise First Officer" INCLUDE the words "First Officer" in his title, it is unlikely to sway an arbitrator well versed in labor law.
The fact is, that unless you have a big MBA payout coming your way, VIPA remain the best alternative for flight crew working for VB/VA/PB. The VIPA elected representatives are dedicated individuals doing the very same job as the people they are representing and have not (yet) developed the "fat cat syndrome". They are receiving the very best legal advice from the recently hired labor lawyer, and their colleagues at AIPA. There is absolutely NO dichotomy between the interests of VB pilots and VA pilots. We all want the same thing - succinct career progression and ability to move between the companies, where the VA CFO's desire to advance into a primary crew role is just as important as a VB captains desire to progress into a WORTHWHILE promotion into wide-body international operation. We now have a golden opportunity to enter into EBA negotiations with a new boss who have a demonstrated affinity with - and, an interest in engaging the pilots - and the best road ahead is most probably not over semantics! Pause for a second and look at the bigger picture!
On that topic - Lawrie Cox, you have in this forum publicly made the assertion that QANTAS pilots are funding VIPA. To preserve your integrity, please substantiate your allegation or retract it forthwith!
Last edited by Red Jet; 14th Jun 2010 at 02:22.
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Don Diego
Clearly if you are not prepared to validate your comments, one can only conclude that you, along with Laurie Cox, are making false statements with the specific intent of trying to create misinformation about VIPA.
Whatever the outcome, and irrespective of past issues, VIPA and AIPA have made a huge step forward in initiating co-operation between two of Australia's three major pilot unions. This collaborative approach has not been possible previously due to the AFAP's desire to destabilize any organisation it deems to be a threat to its existence. What this has meant is that the AFAP has been more focussed on it's own survival than the interests of it's members.
Ironically, had it been more focussed on it's members, VIPA would never have been given the oxygen it needed to get started. Unfortunately for the AFAP, VIPA is now here to stay due to the large amount of dissaffection amongst former AFAP members, who have chosen to move to VIPA.
AIPA has recognised that the executive of VIPA is looking to the future, rather than dwelling in the past and has chosen to publicly support (rather than financially support) an organisation that is focussed on the betterment of our industry, as opposed to an organisation that has demonstrated that it does not represent the views of the majority, but rather will take a position seemingly with the sole intent of undermining another union.
The AFAP had 12 clear months where it was the only union available to support V Australia pilots. During that period it did almost nothing to assist V Australia pilots, despite allegedly having all the experience and resources to do so. Instead, they squandered tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of dollars trying to prevent VIPA's registration.
It is only since VIPA has attacked the company on such issues as allowances, promotion and contract compliance that the AFAP has belatedly made a pitiful attempt to address CRFO salaries, based on the fanciful idea that they are in fact F/O's.
Had the AFAP ignored VIPA and directed their resources toward demonstrating an interest in helping the pilot group they would have secured the support of a vast majority of V pilots. Instead, many pilots who would have been happy to join the AFAP were left asking, 'why aren't they doing anything' and chose VIPA, with a view to trying to change the dynamics of pilot representation that has existed in Australia for the last 20 years.
Regardless of any of Lawrie Cox's spin, had the Feds not been asleep at the wheel for the last 10 years, they would now hold an insurmountable position as the dominant union in Australia. Instead, they are fighting for relevance in the airline industry as pilots from Jetstar, VB and V are leaving in droves to join a union that at least holds some hope of a better future, rather than continue with a group that lets the spectre of the past dominate their ideology.
V
Clearly if you are not prepared to validate your comments, one can only conclude that you, along with Laurie Cox, are making false statements with the specific intent of trying to create misinformation about VIPA.
Whatever the outcome, and irrespective of past issues, VIPA and AIPA have made a huge step forward in initiating co-operation between two of Australia's three major pilot unions. This collaborative approach has not been possible previously due to the AFAP's desire to destabilize any organisation it deems to be a threat to its existence. What this has meant is that the AFAP has been more focussed on it's own survival than the interests of it's members.
Ironically, had it been more focussed on it's members, VIPA would never have been given the oxygen it needed to get started. Unfortunately for the AFAP, VIPA is now here to stay due to the large amount of dissaffection amongst former AFAP members, who have chosen to move to VIPA.
AIPA has recognised that the executive of VIPA is looking to the future, rather than dwelling in the past and has chosen to publicly support (rather than financially support) an organisation that is focussed on the betterment of our industry, as opposed to an organisation that has demonstrated that it does not represent the views of the majority, but rather will take a position seemingly with the sole intent of undermining another union.
The AFAP had 12 clear months where it was the only union available to support V Australia pilots. During that period it did almost nothing to assist V Australia pilots, despite allegedly having all the experience and resources to do so. Instead, they squandered tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of dollars trying to prevent VIPA's registration.
It is only since VIPA has attacked the company on such issues as allowances, promotion and contract compliance that the AFAP has belatedly made a pitiful attempt to address CRFO salaries, based on the fanciful idea that they are in fact F/O's.
Had the AFAP ignored VIPA and directed their resources toward demonstrating an interest in helping the pilot group they would have secured the support of a vast majority of V pilots. Instead, many pilots who would have been happy to join the AFAP were left asking, 'why aren't they doing anything' and chose VIPA, with a view to trying to change the dynamics of pilot representation that has existed in Australia for the last 20 years.
Regardless of any of Lawrie Cox's spin, had the Feds not been asleep at the wheel for the last 10 years, they would now hold an insurmountable position as the dominant union in Australia. Instead, they are fighting for relevance in the airline industry as pilots from Jetstar, VB and V are leaving in droves to join a union that at least holds some hope of a better future, rather than continue with a group that lets the spectre of the past dominate their ideology.
V
Last edited by Vorsicht; 14th Jun 2010 at 23:46.
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Both unions are lacking in their support of VA pilots. It has been my observation that many (not all) on the various PRCs use it as a leap into management rather to better the terms and conditions of their members, screwing over their fellow pilots in the process. I imagine UAL Furlough has some first hand experience of that which probably explains why he left Jet*
As a VA pilot, I can not see that VIPA has done anything in support of its member’s terms and conditions at VA, despite what they have said here. Facebook and twitter accounts aren’t progress.
Vorsicht exactly what has VIPA done to advance the “First Officers (cruise relief)” terms and conditions. You’ll notice I referred to the “First Officers (cruise relief)” in the same terminology as their contracts. It’s a bit different than just having the term FO in the title. Fanciful? who the hell cares as long as it gets a result. As far as the Flight crew are aware at VA only the AFAP has started to push for even the current award conditions (pathetic as they are).
Moreover it would appear that VIPA was instrumental in developing an upgrade criteria for “First Officers (cruise relief)” which excluded experience gained at VA, Thus forcing 97% to have to leave in order to get an upgrade. This little gem didn’t surface until 8 months after flying operations had begun, coupled with the obvious evidence that VB is knocking back everyone over 40 (there is one exception but given the relationship with Brett it is obvious as to why), is the cause of a rapid drop in morale. It would appear that this situation has been caused by the same group purporting to represent our interests.
While the “First Officers (cruise relief)” have been unfairly dealt with, the Senior First Officers have been truly F@#ked over. Other than a token upgrade here and there all the command positions are going to VB pilots without a reciprocal ability of VA SFO going to VB. They are trapped with the only option of leaving at this point.
It would appear that VIPAs views on progression and terms and conditions is such that they only support only those that advance the cause of a very small group within VA at the expense of every one else.
UAL Furlough speaks from a position of being one of few promoted vertically within VA. As a result he probably has a rosier view than the rest. Of all promotions to date, current VA pilots have made up less than 20%. There is a deed that entitles 4/7th of command positions to VB pilots. Obviously that needs to be honoured until it expires so why are the VB FOs comming?
The AFAP has been dragged, pushed and bullied into doing something. At least this is a start. None of the unions has shined, but at least there is a start. As far as I can see VIPA is just standing back and throwing stones at the AFAP. It is sickening to see the haste with which many here rush to cut down any attempt to better terms and conditions, particularly when they are a union supposedly representing us.
As a VA pilot, I can not see that VIPA has done anything in support of its member’s terms and conditions at VA, despite what they have said here. Facebook and twitter accounts aren’t progress.
Vorsicht exactly what has VIPA done to advance the “First Officers (cruise relief)” terms and conditions. You’ll notice I referred to the “First Officers (cruise relief)” in the same terminology as their contracts. It’s a bit different than just having the term FO in the title. Fanciful? who the hell cares as long as it gets a result. As far as the Flight crew are aware at VA only the AFAP has started to push for even the current award conditions (pathetic as they are).
Moreover it would appear that VIPA was instrumental in developing an upgrade criteria for “First Officers (cruise relief)” which excluded experience gained at VA, Thus forcing 97% to have to leave in order to get an upgrade. This little gem didn’t surface until 8 months after flying operations had begun, coupled with the obvious evidence that VB is knocking back everyone over 40 (there is one exception but given the relationship with Brett it is obvious as to why), is the cause of a rapid drop in morale. It would appear that this situation has been caused by the same group purporting to represent our interests.
While the “First Officers (cruise relief)” have been unfairly dealt with, the Senior First Officers have been truly F@#ked over. Other than a token upgrade here and there all the command positions are going to VB pilots without a reciprocal ability of VA SFO going to VB. They are trapped with the only option of leaving at this point.
It would appear that VIPAs views on progression and terms and conditions is such that they only support only those that advance the cause of a very small group within VA at the expense of every one else.
UAL Furlough speaks from a position of being one of few promoted vertically within VA. As a result he probably has a rosier view than the rest. Of all promotions to date, current VA pilots have made up less than 20%. There is a deed that entitles 4/7th of command positions to VB pilots. Obviously that needs to be honoured until it expires so why are the VB FOs comming?
The AFAP has been dragged, pushed and bullied into doing something. At least this is a start. None of the unions has shined, but at least there is a start. As far as I can see VIPA is just standing back and throwing stones at the AFAP. It is sickening to see the haste with which many here rush to cut down any attempt to better terms and conditions, particularly when they are a union supposedly representing us.
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So AFAP has served a log of claims on VA , VIPA apparently consulted but not ready! Is it that VIPA are too busy compiling anti AFAP spin like some threads on this topic? Actions are louder than Krudd spin doctoring!
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Moreover it would appear that VIPA was instrumental in developing an upgrade criteria for “First Officers (cruise relief)” which excluded experience gained at VA, Thus forcing 97% to have to leave in order to get an upgrade. This little gem didn’t surface until 8 months after flying operations had begun, coupled with the obvious evidence that VB is knocking back everyone over 40 (there is one exception but given the relationship with Brett it is obvious as to why), is the cause of a rapid drop in morale. It would appear that this situation has been caused by the same group purporting to represent our interest
As a First Officer ( cruise relief ) could you please enlighten us what
piloting functions you actually perform on a standard sector.By the way
whingeing doesn't count.
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Grey Nomad is that all you got out of my post? That is sad. But to answer one of your questions I'm in the under 40 group (just). I've got a bit (ok a lot) of grey hair so I am worried.
After reading your post it has become obvious to me that VA can save even more money on crew salaries! Insead of using pilots for "First Officer (cruise relief)" let the cabin crew take their rest in the cockpit when the primary crew is resting. It will save 2 beds in the back and 2 CRFO salaries after all its not as though they will need to do any "piloting". I might even get a couple of hundred dollars of my bonus for this idea!
Slice, I believe there were 6 VB FOs that came across during the great VB GFC swindle and another 6 (2 may be PB) so far that have been appointed. It would appear that out of every 4-5 SFO positions only 1 has gone to an internal canditate (I understand only 4 in total met the criteria) the rest to VB (maybe a couple of PB captains comming across as SFOs). There is an oversupply of VB/PB applicants for every position available.
After reading your post it has become obvious to me that VA can save even more money on crew salaries! Insead of using pilots for "First Officer (cruise relief)" let the cabin crew take their rest in the cockpit when the primary crew is resting. It will save 2 beds in the back and 2 CRFO salaries after all its not as though they will need to do any "piloting". I might even get a couple of hundred dollars of my bonus for this idea!
Slice, I believe there were 6 VB FOs that came across during the great VB GFC swindle and another 6 (2 may be PB) so far that have been appointed. It would appear that out of every 4-5 SFO positions only 1 has gone to an internal canditate (I understand only 4 in total met the criteria) the rest to VB (maybe a couple of PB captains comming across as SFOs). There is an oversupply of VB/PB applicants for every position available.
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VIPA was instrumental in developing an upgrade criteria
“First Officers (cruise relief)” which excluded experience gained at VA, Thus forcing 97% to have to leave in order to get an upgrade.
If unsuccessfull, they are welcome to apply for promotion within VA for the Flight Manager role.
Senior First Officers have been truly F@#ked over
All pilots have been invited to a free pat on the head and a good condescending from the Promotion and Development Committee. At the conclusion of this meeting it is envisaged we will explain this years STI bonus. Reactions will be noted against merit.
The job TITLE is of little significance
there are VB Fos going to VA ???
We look forward to your application.
Thread Starter
"Semantics is not the surest way to sway a judge (or deputy commissioner), though. Barking up the wrong tree could prove to be a very costly exercise. Please try to explain in layman's terms the difference between the job description of a SO with QANTAS and a CFO with VA?" Red Jet
I would agree that the exact job title on its own doesn't justify in law an immediate inclusion within the award, and I can clearly see why this would be considered as "Semantics".
However, I have been informed that the arbitrator mostly considers in thier decision "the definition of the position as described by Fair Work Australia".
Remember:
"first officer means a pilot who is appointed as first officer by the employer and who currently is licensed by CASA to act as second or third in command of an aircraft requiring two or more pilots"
The individual contracts clearly have the words "first officer".
I would be very interested to hear about Red Jet or VIPA's legal advice regarding this matter - if the've had any at all?
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Hunglo,
I actually surmised a few things from your post. One being that you are paranoid in believing that the unions have any input in the promotion policy of the VA management. Secondly if you honestly believe that VB have been discriminatory in their recruitment process in saying that they only employ CRFO's that are under 40 yo then perhaps you should report them to FWA. The VA CRFO's that missed out could simply have had a bad interview,poor sim or broke some other interview etiquette i.e ( bagging your current employer and training department etc )
You obviously believe that you should be promoted vertically within VA.I imagine the company or insurance/safety departments may prefer to have more experienced pilots with jet time and minimise the risk.I am not saying that pilots without jet time can't be promoted and perform. Many precedents of this are evident throughout the world. It's not really your call. Perhaps if you have such an objection to the VB/PB F.O's joining VA you should volunteer your time and join the AFAP committee to negotiate the new EBA.
You better be quick though, as soon as you turn the big " Four O " VB may
not want you either!
I wish I had the chance to fly one of the big birds as I imagine many of the primary crews may prefer some of the more glamorous crew taking their rest up the front. Maybe you can bring up your cost saving proposal with the GMFO and he may boost your bonus a few tenths of a percent.
I actually surmised a few things from your post. One being that you are paranoid in believing that the unions have any input in the promotion policy of the VA management. Secondly if you honestly believe that VB have been discriminatory in their recruitment process in saying that they only employ CRFO's that are under 40 yo then perhaps you should report them to FWA. The VA CRFO's that missed out could simply have had a bad interview,poor sim or broke some other interview etiquette i.e ( bagging your current employer and training department etc )
You obviously believe that you should be promoted vertically within VA.I imagine the company or insurance/safety departments may prefer to have more experienced pilots with jet time and minimise the risk.I am not saying that pilots without jet time can't be promoted and perform. Many precedents of this are evident throughout the world. It's not really your call. Perhaps if you have such an objection to the VB/PB F.O's joining VA you should volunteer your time and join the AFAP committee to negotiate the new EBA.
You better be quick though, as soon as you turn the big " Four O " VB may
not want you either!
I wish I had the chance to fly one of the big birds as I imagine many of the primary crews may prefer some of the more glamorous crew taking their rest up the front. Maybe you can bring up your cost saving proposal with the GMFO and he may boost your bonus a few tenths of a percent.
Last edited by Grey Nomad; 18th Jun 2010 at 00:36.
Even Jetstar got rid of the Cruise F/O position, partly because there were so few applicants and partly because there were so few sectors that required them.
While Jetstar had them there was no fixed base sims available for practice as allowed by Qantas and a lot of the guys that tried to upgrade had great difficulty, most made it on either the 330 or 320 eventually but at least one was told DCM.
While Jetstar had them there was no fixed base sims available for practice as allowed by Qantas and a lot of the guys that tried to upgrade had great difficulty, most made it on either the 330 or 320 eventually but at least one was told DCM.
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Hunglo
I am sorry to say you are seriously misinformed with regard to the influence either union has over conditions or policy at VA.
At present, every pilot is on an individual contract, therefore, the only person that can influence that is the individual, or an appointed representative. Regardless of being able to have a representative, the unions do not, at this stage, have any collective bargaining power when it comes to current contracts.
Until an EBA is in place, if you have a problem with your contract or a company policy, you have to get off your Ar*e and speak to your union, arrange an appointment with your management and get in a fight for what you want.
Accordingly, the company was not required to, nor did they attempt to, consult the unions about the upgrade policy. You are seriously delusional or misinformed if you think that the current policy is a product of collaboration with VIPA, and i would challenge you to substantiate your claims.
What appears to be consistent in this thread is that pro AFAP posters are happy to post hearsay as fact, in support of their position. Whilst it is clear that this is a rumour site, and nothing on it can be taken seriously, it would appear that you are trying to inflluence peoples choices based on misinformation.
If you are genuinely interested in improving things, i would suggest you talk to your union rep and get the facts. Or is it that you are one of the many fence sitters who prefer to sit back and criticize rather than get involved.
As far as the SFO's getting screwed, there is absolutely no evidence to support that. Everyone was well aware of the existence of the deed attached to the AFAP EBA that guarantees 4 in 7 of commands will go to VB pilots. As far as i can find out, commands are approximately in accordance with that deed, and MLO is ensuring that it is honored and nothing more. If you have a problem with the deed and the effect it is having on SFO's, I suggest you take that up with the group responsible for it, the AFAP.
As far as the apparently discriminatory selection of SFO's, out of seniority, for upgrade, well that is another matter, and one that will be addressed in the EBA. But until then, all current promotions are in accordance with your contract, which essentially means that the company can upgrade whoever they like. In case you have forgotten, you signed that contract.
Again, I would reiterate, if you are not happy with your current conditions, phone your union reps and ask what you can do to help.
Whilst it appear that from your ill informed position that VIPA are doing little, it may be worth noting that the recent change in position by the company on the combined EBA was a direct result of the VASC writing to John Borghetti. Having said that, you are also probably totally ignorant of the amount of work that is required in preparing a Log of Claims for an EBA negotiation. Sure VIPA could take the easy road and pick the low hanging fruit by piggybacking on the VB eba, but as i understand it, they are developing a greenfields document that is far more comprehensive than the VB EBA.
So feel free to sit back and criticize, after all it is the hallmark of the Australian pilot, and sleep well knowing that at least some of your colleagues, both AFAP and VIPA, are giving up huge chunks of their time off trying to improve things for everyone.
V
At present, every pilot is on an individual contract, therefore, the only person that can influence that is the individual, or an appointed representative. Regardless of being able to have a representative, the unions do not, at this stage, have any collective bargaining power when it comes to current contracts.
Until an EBA is in place, if you have a problem with your contract or a company policy, you have to get off your Ar*e and speak to your union, arrange an appointment with your management and get in a fight for what you want.
Accordingly, the company was not required to, nor did they attempt to, consult the unions about the upgrade policy. You are seriously delusional or misinformed if you think that the current policy is a product of collaboration with VIPA, and i would challenge you to substantiate your claims.
What appears to be consistent in this thread is that pro AFAP posters are happy to post hearsay as fact, in support of their position. Whilst it is clear that this is a rumour site, and nothing on it can be taken seriously, it would appear that you are trying to inflluence peoples choices based on misinformation.
If you are genuinely interested in improving things, i would suggest you talk to your union rep and get the facts. Or is it that you are one of the many fence sitters who prefer to sit back and criticize rather than get involved.
As far as the SFO's getting screwed, there is absolutely no evidence to support that. Everyone was well aware of the existence of the deed attached to the AFAP EBA that guarantees 4 in 7 of commands will go to VB pilots. As far as i can find out, commands are approximately in accordance with that deed, and MLO is ensuring that it is honored and nothing more. If you have a problem with the deed and the effect it is having on SFO's, I suggest you take that up with the group responsible for it, the AFAP.
As far as the apparently discriminatory selection of SFO's, out of seniority, for upgrade, well that is another matter, and one that will be addressed in the EBA. But until then, all current promotions are in accordance with your contract, which essentially means that the company can upgrade whoever they like. In case you have forgotten, you signed that contract.
Again, I would reiterate, if you are not happy with your current conditions, phone your union reps and ask what you can do to help.
Whilst it appear that from your ill informed position that VIPA are doing little, it may be worth noting that the recent change in position by the company on the combined EBA was a direct result of the VASC writing to John Borghetti. Having said that, you are also probably totally ignorant of the amount of work that is required in preparing a Log of Claims for an EBA negotiation. Sure VIPA could take the easy road and pick the low hanging fruit by piggybacking on the VB eba, but as i understand it, they are developing a greenfields document that is far more comprehensive than the VB EBA.
So feel free to sit back and criticize, after all it is the hallmark of the Australian pilot, and sleep well knowing that at least some of your colleagues, both AFAP and VIPA, are giving up huge chunks of their time off trying to improve things for everyone.
V
Last edited by Vorsicht; 18th Jun 2010 at 01:47.
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Everyone was well aware of the existence of the deed attached to the AFAP EBA that guarantees 4 in 7 of commands will go to VB pilots
So please don't include me in your 'everyone'.
MAX
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I dont have a chip over the issue as it doesnt affect me in the grand scheme.
Im just correcting your flannel.
But thanks for your nice comment.
I look forward to ignoring you at the pub.
MAX
Im just correcting your flannel.
But thanks for your nice comment.
I look forward to ignoring you at the pub.
MAX
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VOz_HR_Sheik, with a name like that you would know that HR does not yet exist in VB/VA. People management is the go. You should also know that the GMFO and MLO (I've corrected the title for you) had no experience on the 777 before VA. The MLO still doesn't…….. Actually having thought about it, you may be correct, the upgrade criterion does reflect their vast experience in the 777!!
Vorsicht, I refer to the individuals representing VIPA at VA rather than the union. My bad for misleading the thread. From my perspective there is little difference as VIPA is them at VA. For those who have access to Virginetics ask the moderators to reinstall the posts on union membership from the VIPA reps that have been modified recently by them. That will give you a different perspective on what they are peddling. Are you paranoid if they really are out to get you? Their motivation for doing so is worth a healthy discussion.
As I read it the recent AFAP newsletter politely said that VIPA had not contributed anything to the log of claims. It’s a bit rich to claim credit for the VA agreement to separate EBAs as both the FAAA and the AFAP gave notice of taking the matter to the FWA. John Borghetti is aware of the morale issues (hence the engagement survey) and probably doesn’t see the point in antagonising his front line staff any further over a point that VA will lose at the FWA. I suppose piggybacking on the FAAA and AFAP is easier than actually doing something. Perhaps you can twitter that?
Like Max I was unaware of the deed. I had I know there was a bottle neck that would halt promotion at all levels I probably wouldn't have joined. I asked a couple of the early starters and they were not told either. Admittedly I didn’t look at the VB EBA to figure out my promotional prospects at VA. Any one got a copy of the PB contract? Who knows what gems that affect my future await discovery there!!
Vorsicht, I refer to the individuals representing VIPA at VA rather than the union. My bad for misleading the thread. From my perspective there is little difference as VIPA is them at VA. For those who have access to Virginetics ask the moderators to reinstall the posts on union membership from the VIPA reps that have been modified recently by them. That will give you a different perspective on what they are peddling. Are you paranoid if they really are out to get you? Their motivation for doing so is worth a healthy discussion.
As I read it the recent AFAP newsletter politely said that VIPA had not contributed anything to the log of claims. It’s a bit rich to claim credit for the VA agreement to separate EBAs as both the FAAA and the AFAP gave notice of taking the matter to the FWA. John Borghetti is aware of the morale issues (hence the engagement survey) and probably doesn’t see the point in antagonising his front line staff any further over a point that VA will lose at the FWA. I suppose piggybacking on the FAAA and AFAP is easier than actually doing something. Perhaps you can twitter that?
Like Max I was unaware of the deed. I had I know there was a bottle neck that would halt promotion at all levels I probably wouldn't have joined. I asked a couple of the early starters and they were not told either. Admittedly I didn’t look at the VB EBA to figure out my promotional prospects at VA. Any one got a copy of the PB contract? Who knows what gems that affect my future await discovery there!!
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Sorry guys, but I find it hard to believe that anyone that interviewed for an SFO job at VA didn't know about the "deed". Most of my interview was spent discussing the "deed" and the effect it would have on my ability for promotion.
This "deed" was brought up by the GMFO, but I was already aware of it going in.
If you didn't know about it, and still took the job, then the fault of the results are all yours.
This "deed" was brought up by the GMFO, but I was already aware of it going in.
If you didn't know about it, and still took the job, then the fault of the results are all yours.
Hunglo,
And exactly what value does time on type bring to the decision as to whether or not you are worthy of a command (or Senior FO position) or are in fact a nong?
The guy you are referring to would have much more time just on the 737 than you would have total time, as well as significant managerial experience, so show some respect.
And exactly what value does time on type bring to the decision as to whether or not you are worthy of a command (or Senior FO position) or are in fact a nong?
The guy you are referring to would have much more time just on the 737 than you would have total time, as well as significant managerial experience, so show some respect.
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Dehavillanddriver, Courtesy is given, Respect is earned.
In my view and that of many others at VA, the upgrade criteria reflect individuals agendas not a educated view of pilots abilities. Take what you are saying a couple of steps further - if experience operating a 777 within VA doesn’t count for anything why should operating a dinky 737 or Ejet for VB on domestic routes mean so much more?
While one of the gentlemen referred to appears to be a very nice guy, it is rare that one of the universal constants in aviation is broken - scum always floats to the top.
In my view and that of many others at VA, the upgrade criteria reflect individuals agendas not a educated view of pilots abilities. Take what you are saying a couple of steps further - if experience operating a 777 within VA doesn’t count for anything why should operating a dinky 737 or Ejet for VB on domestic routes mean so much more?
While one of the gentlemen referred to appears to be a very nice guy, it is rare that one of the universal constants in aviation is broken - scum always floats to the top.