Report Changing to CTAF, please
If you give up the services of ATC unnecessarily, then, in my opinion, you are less safe. To say otherwise suggests that ATC are irrelevant.
If the post had started out by asking that pilots either make the changing call or else comply with proper radio procedures and respond to calls from Centre, I wouldn't have even waded in. I now know that this is what was meant and that I misinterpreted the original post but as the thread has now taken another direction, I will continue to express my opinion, don't give up a service that you don't have to give up. Centre might just pass on traffic that you missed.
If the post had started out by asking that pilots either make the changing call or else comply with proper radio procedures and respond to calls from Centre, I wouldn't have even waded in. I now know that this is what was meant and that I misinterpreted the original post but as the thread has now taken another direction, I will continue to express my opinion, don't give up a service that you don't have to give up. Centre might just pass on traffic that you missed.
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The whole issue could be solved by airports that want RPT flights providing an ATC tower service. I fonly for the times the aircraft are due.
In the UK this is the case, I believe (without knowing the full criterion) if they want RPT flights or charters over a certain number of seats they have to provide ATC service. And a lot of smaller airports, airfields really, that have never had an RPT have full ATC.
take Wycombe Air Park (Booker) as an example, one short tarmac rw & one grass, 2 based flying clubs (rarely anything bigger than a Cessna 3 series twin), but still has full ATC Tower service during the day
In the UK this is the case, I believe (without knowing the full criterion) if they want RPT flights or charters over a certain number of seats they have to provide ATC service. And a lot of smaller airports, airfields really, that have never had an RPT have full ATC.
take Wycombe Air Park (Booker) as an example, one short tarmac rw & one grass, 2 based flying clubs (rarely anything bigger than a Cessna 3 series twin), but still has full ATC Tower service during the day
As to user pays, yes we are approaching worlds best practice
This is akin to state governments trying to make money out of roads. Aviation is vital infrastructure and ATC is a natural monopoly so for the government to require a PROFIT is a disgrace.
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I think you will also find that the controllers anywhere else in the world are far more respected than Australia also.
Anywhere else in the world you are treated as a professional until you prove yourself an idiot... In Aust you are treated as an idiot until you prove otherwise. Just do a ferry (or operate a non RPT aircraft) and see how it changes when you enter Oz airspace!
It's the culture!
Kelly,
That's because, as I mentioned earlier, some pilots don't have brains (or are not trained) and can't work it out for themselves. There's nothing wrong with the system or rules.
Regardless of intentions, there are now going to be a number of pilots who will report "Changing to CTAF", thereby giving up a service that they don't have to.
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Can I just say to everyone who has contributed, thanks very much
I think this has been enlightening to everyone, be it pilot (RPT & Private) & ATC as a whole. And I think most people can see the bigger picture of this thread, rather than homing in on one aspect or reading more between the lines than there actually is.
As for triadic comment about aviation dieing due to costs. There still is a thriving aviation community in the UK. GA & airlines. Basically if you want the service & protection pay for it. Many of the aerodromes down here dont need an H24 Tower, just cover the times an RPT is due to arrive & depart - they've normally come & gone in 30mins. (no sordid comment please!)
I think this has been enlightening to everyone, be it pilot (RPT & Private) & ATC as a whole. And I think most people can see the bigger picture of this thread, rather than homing in on one aspect or reading more between the lines than there actually is.
As for triadic comment about aviation dieing due to costs. There still is a thriving aviation community in the UK. GA & airlines. Basically if you want the service & protection pay for it. Many of the aerodromes down here dont need an H24 Tower, just cover the times an RPT is due to arrive & depart - they've normally come & gone in 30mins. (no sordid comment please!)
Last edited by rotorblades; 12th Apr 2010 at 11:34. Reason: Got rid of divergence from thread!
This should have been a good thread. I am grateful to rotorblades for raising it. However, I'd like to make 2 observations. Firstly, its a bit disappointing that we have to use pprune as a forum for these discussions. Wouldn't it be good if there was a way of exchanging suggestions / protocol outside of rules. If CASA had a fundamental interest in safety rather than bureaucracy, they would promote such discussions. At the end of the day everyone is safer & happier when pilots & ATC play together well. As a slight digression, recently I rang the local ATC centre to clarify an issue and had a fantastic discussion with a controller which deepened my understanding.
Secondly, I cringe when sections of the AIP, etc are quoted. Adhering to rules does not improve safety when they are slavishly adhered to without insight into them. Whether or not rotorblades comments are covered in regulations, they made sense and I think most of us are better for having now thought about the subject.
Secondly, I cringe when sections of the AIP, etc are quoted. Adhering to rules does not improve safety when they are slavishly adhered to without insight into them. Whether or not rotorblades comments are covered in regulations, they made sense and I think most of us are better for having now thought about the subject.
theres no such thing as affordable safety just corner cutting to make more profit
rotorblades.EDIT-methinks not in keeping with thread
Last edited by OZBUSDRIVER; 12th Apr 2010 at 10:00.
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Hi Old Akro
Good sentiments. It is unfortunate that pprune is the best place for these, but at the moment it is the best outlet. But if it works maybe more threads of interest can come from both sides with questions or comments or concerns.
I'd be happy to try and answer/help anyway I can.
My only other suggestion would be to try and arrange a get together or exchange program (i.e. one day where a pilot from each operator/group that wants to come along & an ATCO & vice versa)for information sharing, But I feel that ASA wouldnt go for this, officially(not without their big managers getting their sticky fingers into it - and they dont know anything about ATC or piloting!), CASA arent interested in anything to do with aviation(or so it seems). I'm not sure how the airlines would react?
the way we did things in the UK was whenever we had an IFER (emergency) training day (lots of them all throughout the year - each controller had to do a mandatory one day IFER training every year, here in oz its just computer based questions, gives no insight into actual problems being faced) we had an airline provide some pilots who would come in and sit with us while we did the simulated emergencies and be a point of reference so we could ask them, "What do you want from us in this situation", "What is workload in the cockpit like" " How could I have done it better" and the like, and when they said dont do that or thats pointless & we took it onboard, we never took umbrage if the pilots told us we'd cocked up (aslong as they told us where we went wrong - constructive criticism). And afterwards there would be a big debrief where everyone went through there emergencies in an open forum. In return the airlines would provides days on their simulators for us, so we could go in and see what it is like in the cockpit - with regard to checklists, what it takes to aviate in ane emergency situation & priorities etc, i.e. when a B747-200 loses an engine on take-off roll - I managed to wipe out the cargo area at Heathrow on the British Aws simulator
Most of the players were involved - B.A., Virgin, BMi, Thomas Cook, Thomson, Easyjet
But it was highly valued by both sides. The feedback we got from the airlines with regard to how we dealt with emergencies was priceless and I feel
assisted NATs & controllers in providing a hugely improved service to all.
If anyone does want to come into BN Centre please feel free to pvt msg me and I'll do my best to sort it out (wont be a problem).
Good sentiments. It is unfortunate that pprune is the best place for these, but at the moment it is the best outlet. But if it works maybe more threads of interest can come from both sides with questions or comments or concerns.
I'd be happy to try and answer/help anyway I can.
My only other suggestion would be to try and arrange a get together or exchange program (i.e. one day where a pilot from each operator/group that wants to come along & an ATCO & vice versa)for information sharing, But I feel that ASA wouldnt go for this, officially(not without their big managers getting their sticky fingers into it - and they dont know anything about ATC or piloting!), CASA arent interested in anything to do with aviation(or so it seems). I'm not sure how the airlines would react?
the way we did things in the UK was whenever we had an IFER (emergency) training day (lots of them all throughout the year - each controller had to do a mandatory one day IFER training every year, here in oz its just computer based questions, gives no insight into actual problems being faced) we had an airline provide some pilots who would come in and sit with us while we did the simulated emergencies and be a point of reference so we could ask them, "What do you want from us in this situation", "What is workload in the cockpit like" " How could I have done it better" and the like, and when they said dont do that or thats pointless & we took it onboard, we never took umbrage if the pilots told us we'd cocked up (aslong as they told us where we went wrong - constructive criticism). And afterwards there would be a big debrief where everyone went through there emergencies in an open forum. In return the airlines would provides days on their simulators for us, so we could go in and see what it is like in the cockpit - with regard to checklists, what it takes to aviate in ane emergency situation & priorities etc, i.e. when a B747-200 loses an engine on take-off roll - I managed to wipe out the cargo area at Heathrow on the British Aws simulator
Most of the players were involved - B.A., Virgin, BMi, Thomas Cook, Thomson, Easyjet
But it was highly valued by both sides. The feedback we got from the airlines with regard to how we dealt with emergencies was priceless and I feel
assisted NATs & controllers in providing a hugely improved service to all.
If anyone does want to come into BN Centre please feel free to pvt msg me and I'll do my best to sort it out (wont be a problem).
If anyone does want to come into BN Centre please feel free to pvt msg me and I'll do my best to sort it out (wont be a problem)
Dr
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I thinks we are diverging radically from the thread, time to rein it back in, and Im as much to blame!
As this is a fairly serious discussion, we'll end the Lisa etc discussion now.
back to the CTAF.....
sorry should say " Changing to CTAF"
As this is a fairly serious discussion, we'll end the Lisa etc discussion now.
back to the CTAF.....
sorry should say " Changing to CTAF"
Rotorblades,
I can see where you are coming from with your suggestion.
Personally I usually stay on centre whilst in the CTAF and know exactly what you are talking about, but I think a consensus needs to be reached amongst ALL controllers before you start asking us to make a new call.
For example, will every second controller from Melbourne Centre ask me to say again due to the unfamiliar call (Im all for plain English in certain cases and certainly not a standard phraseology Nazi), or will some of them mistake the call for me having changed to CTAF?
I can see where you are coming from with your suggestion.
Personally I usually stay on centre whilst in the CTAF and know exactly what you are talking about, but I think a consensus needs to be reached amongst ALL controllers before you start asking us to make a new call.
For example, will every second controller from Melbourne Centre ask me to say again due to the unfamiliar call (Im all for plain English in certain cases and certainly not a standard phraseology Nazi), or will some of them mistake the call for me having changed to CTAF?
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Hi Glekichi,
Its a fair point raised. not All controllers will ever agree. I think from whats been said on this thread, pilots are the same.
May there be some confusion, yes, but if its clear english that monitoring CTAF on com2 there shouldnt be too much. If it appears ATC have taken it you've changed to CTAF, just clarify maintaining two-way with you on com1.
In the end ATC should be listening to whats been said, and if they mishear should ask for clarification.
As someone has said, if you can adequately maintain two-way with ATC and answer any calls (even if with just your callsign), I applaud a JST472 on monday morning who managed it when in, what looked like, an interesting and high workload circuit join. Its not such a big problem if you dont if we know you are monitoring/on CTAF.
Its a risk assessment sort of thing with ATC. If we know you are monitoring/on CTAF and new traffic appears, if you dont answer ATC there is a greater chance of you knwoing about that traffic from its CTAF calls than if we dont know you are on/monitoring CTAF. I hope that makes sense?
Its a fair point raised. not All controllers will ever agree. I think from whats been said on this thread, pilots are the same.
May there be some confusion, yes, but if its clear english that monitoring CTAF on com2 there shouldnt be too much. If it appears ATC have taken it you've changed to CTAF, just clarify maintaining two-way with you on com1.
In the end ATC should be listening to whats been said, and if they mishear should ask for clarification.
As someone has said, if you can adequately maintain two-way with ATC and answer any calls (even if with just your callsign), I applaud a JST472 on monday morning who managed it when in, what looked like, an interesting and high workload circuit join.
Its not such a big problem if you dont if we know you are monitoring/on CTAF. Its a risk assessment sort of thing with ATC. If we know you are monitoring/on CTAF and new traffic appears, if you dont answer ATC there is a greater chance of you knwoing about that traffic from its CTAF calls than if we dont know you are on/monitoring CTAF. I hope that makes sense?
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Its a risk assessment sort of thing with ATC. If we know you are monitoring/on CTAF and new traffic appears, if you dont answer ATC there is a greater chance of you knwoing about that traffic from its CTAF calls than if we dont know you are on/monitoring CTAF. I hope that makes sense?
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Kelly
Only just this morning I departed a CTAF with an Ag aircraft spraying 1Nm from the runway who did not reply to one call. I find it hard to understand that you are solely relying on CN when it's VMC a lookout for VFR traffic on descent arrival is the priority.
Rotors Good post mate, you have been a great help to me when operating Single pilot IFR in your part of the woods.
I had a discusison with a colleague today about this subject & was quite surprised to hear his ideas on this too
Cheers
Only just this morning I departed a CTAF with an Ag aircraft spraying 1Nm from the runway who did not reply to one call. I find it hard to understand that you are solely relying on CN when it's VMC a lookout for VFR traffic on descent arrival is the priority.
Rotors Good post mate, you have been a great help to me when operating Single pilot IFR in your part of the woods.
I had a discusison with a colleague today about this subject & was quite surprised to hear his ideas on this too
Cheers
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Hi Boree,
Dyslexics of the world untie, we rule KO.
way too many nightshifts, trying to type quickly so I wasnt late for work. and was trying to reply to the post after about an hours sleep in 30. speaking of which off for another doggo tonight
What I was basically saying was, for example
If we call traffic to an inbound IFR on new traffic taxiing, If it doesnt answer but has told us previously that it is monitoring the CTAF, there is an increased chance that they have received each other on CTAF and therefore we dont have to worry as much as if:
The inbound hasnt reported monitoring the CTAF and still doesnt answer, we have no indications that the two pilots may know about each other.
And Ive just found a smilie that looks like me!
Dyslexics of the world untie, we rule KO.
way too many nightshifts, trying to type quickly so I wasnt late for work. and was trying to reply to the post after about an hours sleep in 30. speaking of which off for another doggo tonight
What I was basically saying was, for example
If we call traffic to an inbound IFR on new traffic taxiing, If it doesnt answer but has told us previously that it is monitoring the CTAF, there is an increased chance that they have received each other on CTAF and therefore we dont have to worry as much as if:
The inbound hasnt reported monitoring the CTAF and still doesnt answer, we have no indications that the two pilots may know about each other.
And Ive just found a smilie that looks like me!
Nauty S, at what point did I say I was relying solely on Centre. I use all available means to ascertain traffic including Centre, CTAF and my eyes. I simply have no intention of giving up any of these methods unless I have to.
I was ready to forget this thread but once again, it is disturbing me.
The call "Changing to CTAF 126.7" means that you are either no longer able or no longer desire to remain in contact with Centre. Once made, Centre will not pass on traffic and will not call you again unless you fail to cancel SAR within the appropriate time.
The call "Monitoring CTAF" means nothing. If you are in the CTAF for arrival in the CTAF then you had better be monitoring the CTAF. The only response such a call should get is a cringe. Centre should ask for clarification to see whether the said aircraft is in fact changing to CTAF or not.
I was ready to forget this thread but once again, it is disturbing me.
The call "Changing to CTAF 126.7" means that you are either no longer able or no longer desire to remain in contact with Centre. Once made, Centre will not pass on traffic and will not call you again unless you fail to cancel SAR within the appropriate time.
The call "Monitoring CTAF" means nothing. If you are in the CTAF for arrival in the CTAF then you had better be monitoring the CTAF. The only response such a call should get is a cringe. Centre should ask for clarification to see whether the said aircraft is in fact changing to CTAF or not.