Report Changing to CTAF, please
rotorblades, erm, I think you may need to re read Owens post. The sarcasm button was on.
Hear what you are saying. I fly two crew RPT/Charter ops in a jet and I am always amazed at the variation in knowledge of the pilots I fly with as to what happens on your side of the radio transmission. The more both sides understand the easier and safer all our jobs are. CASA has a great deal to answer for by burying radio calls in obscure places in the AIP. There should be a small section of example standard calls for each phase of flight. Hopefully omitting "pending clearance".
The classic lately seems to be "ABC traffic is XYZ, at FL 260 14 miles ahead you will be in a step descent with that aircraft". Unless the other pilot knows what "step descent" means in practice, the ATCO has to keep asking XYZ for level passing. As the upper aircraft approaches their assigned level and calls so, the lower aircraft calls left FLXXX, which allows the ATCO to assign ABC a lower level of some amount and so on. Something like that
When it works well it is poetry, when one pilot is NFI it is painful to listen to.
It requires a common understanding of the procedure and requirements.
Hear what you are saying. I fly two crew RPT/Charter ops in a jet and I am always amazed at the variation in knowledge of the pilots I fly with as to what happens on your side of the radio transmission. The more both sides understand the easier and safer all our jobs are. CASA has a great deal to answer for by burying radio calls in obscure places in the AIP. There should be a small section of example standard calls for each phase of flight. Hopefully omitting "pending clearance".
The classic lately seems to be "ABC traffic is XYZ, at FL 260 14 miles ahead you will be in a step descent with that aircraft". Unless the other pilot knows what "step descent" means in practice, the ATCO has to keep asking XYZ for level passing. As the upper aircraft approaches their assigned level and calls so, the lower aircraft calls left FLXXX, which allows the ATCO to assign ABC a lower level of some amount and so on. Something like that
When it works well it is poetry, when one pilot is NFI it is painful to listen to.
It requires a common understanding of the procedure and requirements.
"Changing to CTAF" gives up one level of protection. ATC are no longer required to pass on traffic once an aircraft has made that call. Perhaps the only warning of the 4 engine prop about to blast off contra to circuit direction was the call from ATC. Why give up that protection when operating in such airspace, especially as the system of radio calls, required or otherwise, is so in dispute, misunderstood, ignored etc. The system is rubbish. The more people adapt with little variences, the longer the rubbish system will be seen to work and remain with us.
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Great thread by the way!
I will normally only report "switching to CTAF", if either of the frequncies that I am monitoring becomes to busy. Unless of course the controller specifically asks "report switching to CTAF", in which case I will report even when I am still monitoring centre.
I will normally only report "switching to CTAF", if either of the frequncies that I am monitoring becomes to busy. Unless of course the controller specifically asks "report switching to CTAF", in which case I will report even when I am still monitoring centre.
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RE: Holding Point...
Iron Bar,
The reason that ML, CB and even little EN are banging on about holding points is that our Check and Standards shop is banging on about it to us!
There is something of a Jihad about this at the minute and I can assure you that there are ATCs who feel like you seem to do!
Just another day in the Funny Farm.
The reason that ML, CB and even little EN are banging on about holding points is that our Check and Standards shop is banging on about it to us!
There is something of a Jihad about this at the minute and I can assure you that there are ATCs who feel like you seem to do!
Just another day in the Funny Farm.
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Hi kelly,
I'm not suggesting anyone should give up the protection from ATC to go to the CTAF. I have no issues with providing a service for as long as pilot needs it. I will never force a pilot to leave the frequency for a CTAF, but if the pilot lets us know he is also on the CTAF, I dont have to be concerned if he doesnt respond to the traffic. Otherwise I dont know whether the traffic has been heard (either from my dirceted info or on the CTAF)
I'm not suggesting anyone should give up the protection from ATC to go to the CTAF. I have no issues with providing a service for as long as pilot needs it. I will never force a pilot to leave the frequency for a CTAF, but if the pilot lets us know he is also on the CTAF, I dont have to be concerned if he doesnt respond to the traffic. Otherwise I dont know whether the traffic has been heard (either from my dirceted info or on the CTAF)
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Now after reading all these posts I understand why you never see old Air Traffic Controllers. I wanted to be one once but was not good enough and became a Pilot.
They do a great job - very un-rewarding and frustrating - constantly juggling and massaging pilot Egos. I have the utmost respect for ATC in this constantly changing over regulated environment. Good on this fella for being brave and putting up a disscussion point. I have personally gained a lot from this post.
Thanks
CHEers
They do a great job - very un-rewarding and frustrating - constantly juggling and massaging pilot Egos. I have the utmost respect for ATC in this constantly changing over regulated environment. Good on this fella for being brave and putting up a disscussion point. I have personally gained a lot from this post.
Thanks
CHEers
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Wow Che,
you almost made me blush!
I echo the statement about learning a lot, I have too.
I have one disadvantage on the RT though, pilots can recognise my voice too well (being a pom) although a Qantas did accuse me of being a canadian once.
Anyone who flies through the stretch of airspace from 45N of Sy to Coffs harbor will probably know me from some of my quirky turns of phrases, things like when an aircraft cancels sar for arrival and I know they are coming back out its normally "speak to you on the way out/way home".
Feel free to say hello (beware there are two poms on the sector). Come to think of it there are more 'foreigners' than Aussies in our aisle I think. There are at least 5 Brits, an Austrian (tall, blonde, stunning voice, cant miss her), 2 yanks, a swede & an Afrikaaner to name but a few.
you almost made me blush!
I echo the statement about learning a lot, I have too.
I have one disadvantage on the RT though, pilots can recognise my voice too well (being a pom) although a Qantas did accuse me of being a canadian once.
Anyone who flies through the stretch of airspace from 45N of Sy to Coffs harbor will probably know me from some of my quirky turns of phrases, things like when an aircraft cancels sar for arrival and I know they are coming back out its normally "speak to you on the way out/way home".
Feel free to say hello (beware there are two poms on the sector). Come to think of it there are more 'foreigners' than Aussies in our aisle I think. There are at least 5 Brits, an Austrian (tall, blonde, stunning voice, cant miss her), 2 yanks, a swede & an Afrikaaner to name but a few.
Tall, blonde, stunning voice ...
... in that case, can I suggest Airservices undertakes a recruitment drive in Austria . This has the potential to address multiple problems simultaneously - not least, improving Contoller morale (for some at least)
I'm 100% with Rotorblades on the courtesy of letting ATC know where you're likely to be listening ... And if things get busy on the CTAF, I usually tell 'em I'm changing even if I'm still monitoring area because if area gets distracting when there's lots of talking on CTAF I wanna be able to turn the volume down on area until it's sorted.
Ted
. This has the potential to address multiple problems simultaneously - not least, improving Contoller morale (for some at least) I'm 100% with Rotorblades on the courtesy of letting ATC know where you're likely to be listening ... And if things get busy on the CTAF, I usually tell 'em I'm changing even if I'm still monitoring area because if area gets distracting when there's lots of talking on CTAF I wanna be able to turn the volume down on area until it's sorted.
Ted
A courtesy and an operational benefit Easy to comply with.
EDIT- ENR 63.2 says the same so its an operational requirment.
Easy to comply with.EDIT- ENR 63.2 says the same so its an operational requirment.
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Rotorblades, with a line-up like that it sounds like a visit to BN Centre is in order 
As has already been mentioned on here, i am surprised by how many pilots I fly with who have differing views and opinions of what radio calls are necessary and what should be said and when.
I think back to my training days and even more recently to training pilots/captains I have flown with and everyone seems to have pet radio calls which they think makes it easier for controllers/other pilots etc to understand or indeed reduces the number of calls they need to make. They then insist that you conform to their way of doing it and before long you are just as guilty as them for adding to the non-conformity of radio calls.
The problem as I see it is that so many of us have our own ideas/opinions of what should be and what shouldn't be said, or what is and what isn't necessary, that those who don't have a very clear understanding of the AIP's end up being just as confused and confusing as everyone else.
As has already been mentioned on here, i am surprised by how many pilots I fly with who have differing views and opinions of what radio calls are necessary and what should be said and when.
I think back to my training days and even more recently to training pilots/captains I have flown with and everyone seems to have pet radio calls which they think makes it easier for controllers/other pilots etc to understand or indeed reduces the number of calls they need to make. They then insist that you conform to their way of doing it and before long you are just as guilty as them for adding to the non-conformity of radio calls.
The problem as I see it is that so many of us have our own ideas/opinions of what should be and what shouldn't be said, or what is and what isn't necessary, that those who don't have a very clear understanding of the AIP's end up being just as confused and confusing as everyone else.
Rotoblades,
I understand that what you are trying to achive is with the best of intentions, however, I don't think you have or will resolve anything. Have a think about it:
You're still not off the hook. You HAVE to be concerned if he doesn't respond. That's the regulations. It would be a brave Rotorblades that took no action on an un answered call to an RPT, that had advised going to the CTAF.
But, your honour ... he said he went to the CTAF ... so he must have heard the traffic on that frequency ... or, Your Honour, he went to the CTAF ... so I was not worried when he didn't reply to me.
Pedantic, I know .... but thems is the rules.
I understand that what you are trying to achive is with the best of intentions, however, I don't think you have or will resolve anything. Have a think about it:
but if the pilot lets us know he is also on the CTAF, I dont have to be concerned if he doesnt respond to the traffic. Otherwise I dont know whether the traffic has been heard (either from my dirceted info or on the CTAF)
But, your honour ... he said he went to the CTAF ... so he must have heard the traffic on that frequency ... or, Your Honour, he went to the CTAF ... so I was not worried when he didn't reply to me.
Pedantic, I know .... but thems is the rules.
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Peuce, I would go with "I tried several times to contact him with no response, your Honour"...
That's fine ... as long as you don't leave it at that.
I would expect the full monty if I was un-contactable ...that is, if it goes to a SAR Phase, so be it. I don't want the Controller not proceeding to the end because ... oh, he was probably alright!
So, I guess what I'm saying is that Rotoblades hasn't really solved anything ... if I don't answer, no matter whether I've "gone to the CTAF", he still has to follow the processes'.
I would expect the full monty if I was un-contactable ...that is, if it goes to a SAR Phase, so be it. I don't want the Controller not proceeding to the end because ... oh, he was probably alright!
So, I guess what I'm saying is that Rotoblades hasn't really solved anything ... if I don't answer, no matter whether I've "gone to the CTAF", he still has to follow the processes'.
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peuce, ATCs don't have to be concerned once they are aware you transfer to CTAF, because ATCs are not required to pass mutual traffic when both are on the CTAF.
Further to the issue is that ATCs are required to continue to provide a flight information service until the pilot reports on the CTAF, in the circuit area, or after landing even if SAR has been cancelled prior to this.
Further to the issue is that ATCs are required to continue to provide a flight information service until the pilot reports on the CTAF, in the circuit area, or after landing even if SAR has been cancelled prior to this.
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If a pilot says "changing to the CTAF" that is termination of comms with the controller. No more broadcasts will normally be made to that aircraft, be it new traffic or changes in weather.
If you are telling us you are monitoring CTAF, or equivalent, we still have the responsibility for traffic.
AIP/ERSA ENR4.2.4
"The responisiblity for collision avoidance.....lies solely with the pilot in command"
http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...r/1_4_1-18.pdf
So the point Im trying to make Peuce, is if you report changing to a CTAF you will not be contacted by ATC again. So you wouldnt not answer a call we would not be making. Thats why in radar airspace you will get the repsonse 'Identification Terminated'. We are ceasing to provide a radar service and as far as we are concerned you are no longer on/listening to our frequency. its no different to being told to call the next sector, we are terminating the coms with ourselves and they are re-established with the next sector with call on frequency.
I'm trying my best to get across the major difference between 'changing to..' & 'Monitoring CTAF on Com2', but I think I'm failing.
I may not solve anything but at least I'm trying, and Im raising awareness of various 'holes in the cheese'.
And I would say 99.95% of controllers when, if a plane is WITHIN the CTAF area & has NOT reported changing to or monitoring CTAF, and doesnt respond to a traffic call does anything else about it. I generally make 2 calls at most. Its sad but true, there are too many other aircraft out there that require traffic information & controlling & sequencing & separating.
And as howard says "I tried several times to contact him with no response", thats all we legally have to do for an unresponded call until 15mins has elapsed, by which time it may be all over, one way or the other.
If you are telling us you are monitoring CTAF, or equivalent, we still have the responsibility for traffic.
AIP/ERSA ENR4.2.4
"The responisiblity for collision avoidance.....lies solely with the pilot in command"
http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...r/1_4_1-18.pdf
So the point Im trying to make Peuce, is if you report changing to a CTAF you will not be contacted by ATC again. So you wouldnt not answer a call we would not be making. Thats why in radar airspace you will get the repsonse 'Identification Terminated'. We are ceasing to provide a radar service and as far as we are concerned you are no longer on/listening to our frequency. its no different to being told to call the next sector, we are terminating the coms with ourselves and they are re-established with the next sector with call on frequency.
I'm trying my best to get across the major difference between 'changing to..' & 'Monitoring CTAF on Com2', but I think I'm failing.
I may not solve anything but at least I'm trying, and Im raising awareness of various 'holes in the cheese'.
And I would say 99.95% of controllers when, if a plane is WITHIN the CTAF area & has NOT reported changing to or monitoring CTAF, and doesnt respond to a traffic call does anything else about it. I generally make 2 calls at most. Its sad but true, there are too many other aircraft out there that require traffic information & controlling & sequencing & separating.
And as howard says "I tried several times to contact him with no response", thats all we legally have to do for an unresponded call until 15mins has elapsed, by which time it may be all over, one way or the other.
The problem as I see it is that so many of us have our own ideas/opinions of what should be and what shouldn't be said, or what is and what isn't necessary, that those who don't have a very clear understanding of the AIP's end up being just as confused and confusing as everyone else.
I agree to a point Bloggs. The thing is the book is very arcane in its giving of wisdom.
As I said above there should be clear examples given in a radio phraseology section. What is there at present is disgraceful with the (info) not to be confused with the [info].
Tell me, PDC aside, do you include your transponder code in your taxi call to ATC at say, maybe, Perth?
As I said above there should be clear examples given in a radio phraseology section. What is there at present is disgraceful with the (info) not to be confused with the [info].
Tell me, PDC aside, do you include your transponder code in your taxi call to ATC at say, maybe, Perth?
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Feel free to say hello (beware there are two poms on the sector). Come to think of it there are more 'foreigners' than Aussies in our aisle I think. There are at least 5 Brits, an Austrian (tall, blonde, stunning voice, cant miss her), 2 yanks, a swede & an Afrikaaner to name but a few.
What about wun tree tree from the Ireland?
Who is de Svede?
Concur re ze Austrian.....
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The real problem, at least with commercial operators, is that the C and T system is either too gutless to demand conformity with the book, or doesn't know the rules itself.
