1 in 50 cabin crew ratio. Acceptable safety?
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...just where is this "cranbrock university" that you refer to and what exactly was the sound scienitific research?
Cranfield: Aircraft Cabin Simulators
Cranfield: Passenger Safety Research
Much of the research related to aircraft evacuations has been conducted by Cranfield as well as the Civil Aerospace Medical Institute in the US and their Cabin Safety Research Team.
It is possible that one of the research documents being referred to might be the following: “Influence of cabin crew during emergency evacuations at floor level exits”, Civil Aviation Authority, CAA Paper 95006, 1995.
For additional information related to evacuations, there is quite a bit available at the following site:
Cabin Safety Research Technical Group
Simple question, but does 1:50 include infants? If not how many additional could be carried?
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QF 767
Minimum operational CC 7
Actual operating CC 7
One CC falls over then that aircraft aint goin nowhere irrespective of pax numbers
Cost/Risk Analysis at its best
Actual operating CC 7
One CC falls over then that aircraft aint goin nowhere irrespective of pax numbers
Cost/Risk Analysis at its best
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Acceptable safety? Forgive me, I do not understand the '' acceptable '' part.
Is that the new acceptable term doing the rounds, that there can be different levels of safety that are acceptable by the certifying authority?
Is that the new acceptable term doing the rounds, that there can be different levels of safety that are acceptable by the certifying authority?
The introduction of the concept of acceptable level of safety responds to the need to complement the prevailing approach to the management of safety based upon regulatory compliance, with a performance-based approach. Acceptable level of safety expresses the safety goals (or expectations) of an oversight authority, an operator or a service provider. From the perspective of the relationship between oversight authorities and operators/service providers, it provides an objective in terms of the safety performance operators/service providers should achieve while conducting their core business functions, as a minimum acceptable to the oversight authority. It is a reference against which the oversight authority can measure safety performance. In determining an acceptable level of safety, it is necessary to consider such factors as the level of risk that applies, the cost/benefits of improvements to the system, and public expectations on the safety of the aviation industry.
ICAO Doc 9859 - Safety Management Manual (SMM)
ICAO Doc 9859 - Safety Management Manual (SMM)
World's best practice is a term invented to circumvent any argument or discussion. How can you possibly disagree with 'world's best practice'?
The reality is that every time I've ever seen it employed it was covering a procedure or practice that was anything but....
The reality is that every time I've ever seen it employed it was covering a procedure or practice that was anything but....
Acceptable Safety: but one degree away from being Unacceptable Safety.
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Devonport Tasmania Australia
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B772:
As far as I know the talks of 1 FA on the F27 36 seater was very short lived. It bit the dust as soon as mooted to F/A unions. We did occaionally run with one F/A when the other went U/S. I did man the EW F27 galley on more than a few occasions when one of the F/A's was ill and it was fun but busy with a max of 36 even on a 52 seater.
The 1:36 is an over water requirement only as I understand it. over land I believe is allowed at 1:50.
The F28 4000s ran at 2 for 72, but the maximum souls on board was from memory 80 including crew and infants, and Agents that had not properly advised rugrats caused major problem. Kentucky Fried Trave were and I believe still are the worst offenders.
Ratlink is currently running under dispensation with the Q400 in 74 seat config so it is doable to get over the limit.
Eeenie Weenie tried running 3 FAs on the 4000, but they just got in each others way. The girls and guys chose to go with two.
As for the safety aspect, look at the SQ accident with Sierra Papa Kilo at TPE. The SQ crews carry a more than adequate compliment of cabin crew, but the tiny girls were unable to crack some of the exits without the help of normal sized humans.
To a large degree it is a case of available grunt in a given FA.
I would rather fly with the current crew of experienced QF link and QF mainline healthy fit F/A's than delicate little 55kg flowers who need someone to save them. That sort of mindset invalidates pax/slf ratios.
1:50 is fine, but on longer sectors but preferably not over water in my humble ground-bound opinion.
Best all
EWL
As far as I know the talks of 1 FA on the F27 36 seater was very short lived. It bit the dust as soon as mooted to F/A unions. We did occaionally run with one F/A when the other went U/S. I did man the EW F27 galley on more than a few occasions when one of the F/A's was ill and it was fun but busy with a max of 36 even on a 52 seater.
The 1:36 is an over water requirement only as I understand it. over land I believe is allowed at 1:50.
The F28 4000s ran at 2 for 72, but the maximum souls on board was from memory 80 including crew and infants, and Agents that had not properly advised rugrats caused major problem. Kentucky Fried Trave were and I believe still are the worst offenders.
Ratlink is currently running under dispensation with the Q400 in 74 seat config so it is doable to get over the limit.
Eeenie Weenie tried running 3 FAs on the 4000, but they just got in each others way. The girls and guys chose to go with two.
As for the safety aspect, look at the SQ accident with Sierra Papa Kilo at TPE. The SQ crews carry a more than adequate compliment of cabin crew, but the tiny girls were unable to crack some of the exits without the help of normal sized humans.
To a large degree it is a case of available grunt in a given FA.
I would rather fly with the current crew of experienced QF link and QF mainline healthy fit F/A's than delicate little 55kg flowers who need someone to save them. That sort of mindset invalidates pax/slf ratios.
1:50 is fine, but on longer sectors but preferably not over water in my humble ground-bound opinion.
Best all
EWL
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the over water thing has no relevance. in europe its been 1:50 for as long as I can remember (10+ yrs). It used to be based on the number of seats installed but now it isn't.
a number of bus operators including easy has blocked off 6 seats in the 319 and have approval to run with 3 dollies just like a 149 seat 737.
we don't like it but its just how it is.
i think its just a case of oz coming into line with the rest of the world nothing more than that and while the bean counters can put that argument up showing precedent and casa accept it thats how it will be.
its all about money now, nothing else, anywhere else.
a number of bus operators including easy has blocked off 6 seats in the 319 and have approval to run with 3 dollies just like a 149 seat 737.
we don't like it but its just how it is.
i think its just a case of oz coming into line with the rest of the world nothing more than that and while the bean counters can put that argument up showing precedent and casa accept it thats how it will be.
its all about money now, nothing else, anywhere else.
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As far as I am aware Scroto, that was and maybe still is the requirement in Oz.
We also had to install liferafts in row 1 of the F28-4000s after removing a 3 seat unit for the NLK flights. Similar had to be carried on the long range F27-500s.
You are right in that the buck rules the brain but Oz has done pretty well being over cautious for the past years.
Best regards
EWL
We also had to install liferafts in row 1 of the F28-4000s after removing a 3 seat unit for the NLK flights. Similar had to be carried on the long range F27-500s.
You are right in that the buck rules the brain but Oz has done pretty well being over cautious for the past years.
Best regards
EWL
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in europe its been 1:50 for as long as I can remember (10+ yrs). It used to be based on the number of seats installed but now it isn't.
OPS 1.990
Number and composition of cabin crew
(a) An operator shall not operate an aeroplane with a maximum approved passenger seating configuration of more than 19, when carrying one or more passengers, unless at least one cabin crew member is included in the crew for the purpose of performing duties, specified in the Operations Manual, in the interests of the safety of passengers.
(b) When complying with subparagraph (a) above, an operator shall ensure that the minimum number of cabin crew is the greater of:
1. one cabin crew member for every 50, or fraction of 50, passenger seats installed on the same deck of the aeroplane; or
2. the number of cabin crew who actively participated in the aeroplane cabin during the relevant emergency evacuation demonstration, or who were assumed to have taken part in the relevant analysis, except that, if the maximum approved passenger seating configuration is less than the number evacuated during the demonstration by at least 50 seats, the number of cabin crew may be reduced by 1 for every whole multiple of 50 seats by which the maximum approved passenger seating configuration falls below the certificated maximum capacity.
COMMISSION REGULATION (EC) No 859/2008 of 20 August 2008 (.pdf)
Number and composition of cabin crew
(a) An operator shall not operate an aeroplane with a maximum approved passenger seating configuration of more than 19, when carrying one or more passengers, unless at least one cabin crew member is included in the crew for the purpose of performing duties, specified in the Operations Manual, in the interests of the safety of passengers.
(b) When complying with subparagraph (a) above, an operator shall ensure that the minimum number of cabin crew is the greater of:
1. one cabin crew member for every 50, or fraction of 50, passenger seats installed on the same deck of the aeroplane; or
2. the number of cabin crew who actively participated in the aeroplane cabin during the relevant emergency evacuation demonstration, or who were assumed to have taken part in the relevant analysis, except that, if the maximum approved passenger seating configuration is less than the number evacuated during the demonstration by at least 50 seats, the number of cabin crew may be reduced by 1 for every whole multiple of 50 seats by which the maximum approved passenger seating configuration falls below the certificated maximum capacity.
COMMISSION REGULATION (EC) No 859/2008 of 20 August 2008 (.pdf)
Here is an extract from the NPRM.
Cabin Crew Ratios - Proposed Amendment to Civil Aviation Order (CAO) Section 20.16.3
So currently a 104 seat aircraft can carry 72 passengers with TWO cabin crew required. This can be achieved by capping passenger numbers. With this change, even with 72 passengers THREE cabin crew would be required as it is based on the number of seats not passengers on board.
Discuss.
Cabin Crew Ratios - Proposed Amendment to Civil Aviation Order (CAO) Section 20.16.3
Provide an avenue for an air operator to conduct operations using the number of cabin crew members used in an aircraft’s successful evacuation demonstration up to a ratio of 1 cabin crew member for every 50 passenger seats or part of that number. The proposed change will be applicable to aircraft with a passenger seat configuration of more than 36 but not more than 216, engaged in charter or regular public transport operations.
Discuss.
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Minimum operational CC 7
Actual operating CC 7
One CC falls over then that aircraft aint goin nowhere irrespective of pax numbers
Cost/Risk Analysis at its best
Actual operating CC 7
One CC falls over then that aircraft aint goin nowhere irrespective of pax numbers
Cost/Risk Analysis at its best
763s can go out with 216 pax + 10 infants with 6 CC. Done it twice (once domestic, once ex-HKG).
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Must agree with Packrat
You may have had some other special requirements (longer sector?) or FAAA input in the decision for some reason? I am just going by what I have read and my own experience.
a number of bus operators including easy has blocked off 6 seats in the 319 and have approval to run with 3 dollies just like a 149 seat 737.
The A319 was originally certificated with 150 pax seats and 3 cabin crew. A second certification was carried out on an A319 with an extra pair of Type III exits, 156 pax seats and 4 cabin crew. Agreement was reached with the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) for this aircraft to hold two certification classes, provided it was modified in accordance with an EASA approved procedure and mandatory maintenance procedures were in place, this is a special case which has been addressed "differently" by EASA.
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maybe i should have been clearer.
the ezy 319s have 156 seats fitted, however the uk caa have given approval for 6 of these seats (which are still installed) to be blocked with a device which looks like a portable table thus rendering them unusable as a normal seat. it looks like a table top between the 2 seats in a row of three.
the a/c all technically have 156 seats installed and can be converted back to this config at any time but whilst there are only 150 usable we only have to have 3 tarts in the cabin.
the whole 319 fleet is being converted to this new config to save on the cost of carrying a 4th bikkie thrower. about 1/2 to 1/3 have been done to date.
as i said before its all about money and no doubt someone in the big orange hangar will get a bonus because of this genius move.
the fact that we are 1200 tarts short this summer and cant fill the slots has nothing to do with it of course.
scrote
the ezy 319s have 156 seats fitted, however the uk caa have given approval for 6 of these seats (which are still installed) to be blocked with a device which looks like a portable table thus rendering them unusable as a normal seat. it looks like a table top between the 2 seats in a row of three.
the a/c all technically have 156 seats installed and can be converted back to this config at any time but whilst there are only 150 usable we only have to have 3 tarts in the cabin.
the whole 319 fleet is being converted to this new config to save on the cost of carrying a 4th bikkie thrower. about 1/2 to 1/3 have been done to date.
as i said before its all about money and no doubt someone in the big orange hangar will get a bonus because of this genius move.
the fact that we are 1200 tarts short this summer and cant fill the slots has nothing to do with it of course.
scrote
Maybe I should have been clearer! The reason the CAA allow the easyJet A319 to operate with three cabin crew (when the seat blocker is fitted), even though it is certified for 156 seats is because the same type is also certified with 150 seats. It is a peculiarity of the easyJet ordered A319s, not a general policy to allow a higher than 1:50 ratio of cabin crew:seats.
The reason the CAA allow the easyJet A319 to operate with three cabin crew (when the seat blocker is fitted), even though it is certified for 156 seats is because the same type is also certified with 150 seats. It is a peculiarity of the easyJet ordered A319s, not a general policy to allow a higher than 1:50 ratio of cabin crew:seats.
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yes that is mostly correct apart from the one off dispo that the caa have given easy to have the two different certifications which normally wouldn't be allowed under eu ops.
our present fearless leader AH told us at sep day that easy was not the first operator to have 150 seat 319s and that this was the basis for their argument to be able to change them back. He also said that when it suited economically they would change them back to 156. I was sitting in front of him when he said it.
having said all that he does speak with forked tongue and as a rule i dont believe much he says but.
the point is that where a buck is involved rules can be manipulated by operators like the orange one and the regulators just fall into line.
our present fearless leader AH told us at sep day that easy was not the first operator to have 150 seat 319s and that this was the basis for their argument to be able to change them back. He also said that when it suited economically they would change them back to 156. I was sitting in front of him when he said it.
having said all that he does speak with forked tongue and as a rule i dont believe much he says but.
the point is that where a buck is involved rules can be manipulated by operators like the orange one and the regulators just fall into line.
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Questions For Ditzy
1.How many types of 767 does Qantas operate?
2.What are their repsective pax configs?
3.After having a look at the EPs Manual what are the min operating crew for each?
2.What are their repsective pax configs?
3.After having a look at the EPs Manual what are the min operating crew for each?
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1.How many types of 767 does Qantas operate?
2.What are their repsective pax configs?
GE Various configurations. Up to 254 max pax.
3.After having a look at the EPs Manual what are the min operating crew for each?
GE - 7 CC is standard for all configurations and minimum crew for a full load, with the exception of the domestic config. On the 254 max pax (domestic config) two Y seats are blocked to allow 7 CC ops. 8 CC required if these two seats sold.
GE (all configs) can ops with 6 CC with max load of 216 + 10 infants (as previously stated).
Last edited by ditzyboy; 10th Apr 2010 at 03:22.