Govt Trying To Ban Jump Seats Again Today
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was't it a flight attendant with BA who stopped the captain getting sucked out the window of a 737 some years ago while the f/o was busy trying to fly/land the aircraft?
bet the f/o would have liked some more help from another pilot
bet the f/o would have liked some more help from another pilot
indamiddle,
To put the record straight, said aeroplane was a BAC1-11. It made an emergency landing at Southampton. I'm sure the F/O would have liked some help but the Capt's station was more than fully occupied by an F/A who was hanging onto the ankles of the skipper who was dangling outside the window.
That aside, are you seriously suggesting adding a jump-seat rider to cover freak contingencies? Are you people so desperate to selfishly retain a perk that you'll say anything to justify its retention? Get real.
To put the record straight, said aeroplane was a BAC1-11. It made an emergency landing at Southampton. I'm sure the F/O would have liked some help but the Capt's station was more than fully occupied by an F/A who was hanging onto the ankles of the skipper who was dangling outside the window.
That aside, are you seriously suggesting adding a jump-seat rider to cover freak contingencies? Are you people so desperate to selfishly retain a perk that you'll say anything to justify its retention? Get real.
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Are you people so desperate to selfishly retain a perk that you'll say anything to justify its retention? Get real
Ken Borough
And your job doesn’t come with benefits and perks? Get real. You obviously aren’t a pilot because if you were you would realise having an additional set of qualified eyes on the flight deck greatly improves safety and guess what, it’s free. The chances of a Fed Ex style scenario is miniscule compared to the number of times a jump seater has brought to the attention of the operating flight crew a potential stuff up or been an extra set of hands in an emergency. I find it mind boggling that you are willy wagging such an issue. Quite frankly it is childish point scoring.
And your job doesn’t come with benefits and perks? Get real. You obviously aren’t a pilot because if you were you would realise having an additional set of qualified eyes on the flight deck greatly improves safety and guess what, it’s free. The chances of a Fed Ex style scenario is miniscule compared to the number of times a jump seater has brought to the attention of the operating flight crew a potential stuff up or been an extra set of hands in an emergency. I find it mind boggling that you are willy wagging such an issue. Quite frankly it is childish point scoring.
having an additional set of qualified eyes on the flight deck greatly improves safety
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You're simply digging a bigger hole for yourself Ken. On the a/c I operate, a duty/staff travel rider in the jump seat enhances cockpit security actually. Positioning of the seat and proximity to the door actually pretty much guarantees NOONE is getting in uninvited, and their eyes are always welcome to oversight the other pair on the flightdeck. Get over it. Anyhow, why do we have to justify it to you? Are you Albanese?
why do we have to justify it to you?
BTW, (1) are you implying that the strengthened flight deck doors are inadequate?
(2) how can any non-qualified lay jump-seat rider, including dead-heading or off-duty F/As, enhance safety?
(3) Is it not possible to have a sensible discussion without emotion or personal invective? This forum is not Jet Blast.
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Are you suggesting that safety is being diminished or compromised by not having someone in the jump seat?
Answer this simple question. Is safety
A. Enhanced
B. Diminished
by having a trained crew member in the flight deck in your opinion. A or B simply question.
Ken why is it so difficult to understand that another set of eyes in a cockpit is a bonus.
Ask the travelling public whether they would prefer one, two, three or four pilots and the answer will be as many as they can fit in the cockpit!
This is not as you describe an exercise in retaining a perk.
This whole sorry exercise is an attempt to strip the authority of the pilot in command as to how he manages his/her aircraft.
Funny how when the sh*t hits the fan the PIC has the authority to go outside SOP's and Regulations to ensure the continued safety of the operation but yet when the PIC tells a legislator that a proposed rule is in fact counterproductive and achieves less margins of safety the pilots are howled down as being self serving.
Can you tell me what the safest option is -
1 737 Cockpit door open in flight and being 'guarded' by a 21 year old 40Kg size 2 Flight attendant.
or
2 737 Cockpit door open in flight with the jump seat deployed, the back rest in place, and the head rest erect with a jump seat passenger strapped in and seated with the 21 year old 40 Kg size 2 Flight attendant also guarding the door.
Depending upon your experience in 737's you may or may not know that it would be physically impossible to gain access to the flight crew if the jump seat is occupied!
Tell me why the legislators want to have that seat down and unoccupied which will allow free access to my cockpit for all who want to tackle my size 2 guard.
Tell me why you are so interested in having that seat empty.
Tell me why when the sh*t truly hits the fan you want a current and endorsed pilot in row 29 instead of the jump seat.
Tell me why MY office is such an item of importance to YOU
Freak contingencies or not overall safety is improved and I have yet to have it explained to me why a pilot in the jump seat is a threat.
That's Reality!
Ask the travelling public whether they would prefer one, two, three or four pilots and the answer will be as many as they can fit in the cockpit!
This is not as you describe an exercise in retaining a perk.
This whole sorry exercise is an attempt to strip the authority of the pilot in command as to how he manages his/her aircraft.
Funny how when the sh*t hits the fan the PIC has the authority to go outside SOP's and Regulations to ensure the continued safety of the operation but yet when the PIC tells a legislator that a proposed rule is in fact counterproductive and achieves less margins of safety the pilots are howled down as being self serving.
Can you tell me what the safest option is -
1 737 Cockpit door open in flight and being 'guarded' by a 21 year old 40Kg size 2 Flight attendant.
or
2 737 Cockpit door open in flight with the jump seat deployed, the back rest in place, and the head rest erect with a jump seat passenger strapped in and seated with the 21 year old 40 Kg size 2 Flight attendant also guarding the door.
Depending upon your experience in 737's you may or may not know that it would be physically impossible to gain access to the flight crew if the jump seat is occupied!
Tell me why the legislators want to have that seat down and unoccupied which will allow free access to my cockpit for all who want to tackle my size 2 guard.
Tell me why you are so interested in having that seat empty.
Tell me why when the sh*t truly hits the fan you want a current and endorsed pilot in row 29 instead of the jump seat.
Tell me why MY office is such an item of importance to YOU
Freak contingencies or not overall safety is improved and I have yet to have it explained to me why a pilot in the jump seat is a threat.
That's Reality!
Ken Borough
Potentially.
Because it would cost airlines money and it legally isn’t required. Do you think airlines would have two pilots if it wasn’t legally required?
Are you suggesting that safety is being diminished or compromised by not having someone in the jump seat?
If as you say that safety is greatly improved, why isn't the extra set of eyes carried at all times?
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Can Do Ken
ad-astra,
Good point.
Can Do Ken doesn't understand because he simply does not comprehend,grasp or comprehend the facets of safety as a whole.A simple man indeed !
porch monkey to Ken,
That is GOLD ! I think you may be right. But then again, maybe Ken is actually the Tin Foil Fairy ?
Ken why is it so difficult to understand that another set of eyes in a cockpit is a bonus.
Can Do Ken doesn't understand because he simply does not comprehend,grasp or comprehend the facets of safety as a whole.A simple man indeed !
porch monkey to Ken,
Are you Albanese?
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sorry Ken - can't agree. Extra eyes, extra ears and an extra brain.
Certainly would not write off CC as deadhead dunces as suggested in your post-
proof point: I know quite a few CC that hold PPL, CPL et. al.,
- one QF CC now on the A380 has a lot of fixed wing and rotary wing experience, including a main rotor failure - I'd have him in the seat anyday.
In fact a CC in the jump seat of a 767 inbound to YSSY a couple of years back noticed that the seatbelt sign was still off. (F/O a bit embarassed & red faced - but several debriefs and lengthy reports averted, flight crew very grateful
).
End of the day this issue is wholly about bureaucrats lobbying their pollie masters.
We don't need any more Nannies trying to tell us how to run our office - we have more than enough within our own organisations!
AT
PS: The good Minister should punt the flunkies on this one and stick to the slightly more important issues.
Certainly would not write off CC as deadhead dunces as suggested in your post-
proof point: I know quite a few CC that hold PPL, CPL et. al.,
- one QF CC now on the A380 has a lot of fixed wing and rotary wing experience, including a main rotor failure - I'd have him in the seat anyday.
In fact a CC in the jump seat of a 767 inbound to YSSY a couple of years back noticed that the seatbelt sign was still off. (F/O a bit embarassed & red faced - but several debriefs and lengthy reports averted, flight crew very grateful
). End of the day this issue is wholly about bureaucrats lobbying their pollie masters.
We don't need any more Nannies trying to tell us how to run our office - we have more than enough within our own organisations!
AT
PS: The good Minister should punt the flunkies on this one and stick to the slightly more important issues.
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First post after 10 years reading PPRuNe!
Ken Borough:
In addition to ad-astra's arguments regarding physical access to the cockpit, having other flight crew, ATC staff etc in the jumpseat is another set of qualified eyes and / or ears watching the operation.
As a private pilot and ATC'er for a few years now, I can recall at least 2 ocassions where I have been the only person on the flightdeck to have heard either an ATC instruction (cancelling pushback clearance due to traffic incorrectly passing behind) or another aircraft's initial call on an MBZ freq. On both ocassions I was able to advise the crew of a probable call for the aircraft which in a small way may have helped to prevent the holes lining up in the swiss cheese.
Solely from an ATC perspective, the more exposure we have of flightdeck operations, the better.
Mozz
Ken Borough:
In addition to ad-astra's arguments regarding physical access to the cockpit, having other flight crew, ATC staff etc in the jumpseat is another set of qualified eyes and / or ears watching the operation.
As a private pilot and ATC'er for a few years now, I can recall at least 2 ocassions where I have been the only person on the flightdeck to have heard either an ATC instruction (cancelling pushback clearance due to traffic incorrectly passing behind) or another aircraft's initial call on an MBZ freq. On both ocassions I was able to advise the crew of a probable call for the aircraft which in a small way may have helped to prevent the holes lining up in the swiss cheese.
Solely from an ATC perspective, the more exposure we have of flightdeck operations, the better.
Mozz
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Ode to Ken
ARTIST: Gilbert and Sullivan
TITLE: The First Lord's Song
When I was a lad I served a term
As office boy to an attorney's firm
I cleaned the windows and I swept the floor
And I polished up the handle of the big front door
I polished up that handle so carefully
That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navy
As office boy I made such a mark
That they gave me the post of a junior clerk
I served the writs with a smile so bland
And I copied all the letters in a big round hand
I copied all the letters in a hand so free
That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navy
In serving writs I made such a name
That an articled clerk I soon became
I wore clean collars and a brand-new suit
For the Pass Examination at the Institute
And that Pass Examination did so well for me
That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navy
Of legal knowledge I acquired such a grip
That they took me into the partnership
And that junior partnership I ween
Was the only ship that I ever had seen
But that kind of ship so suited me
That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navy
I grew so rich that I was sent
By a pocket borough into Parliament
I always voted at my Party's call
And I never thought of thinking for myself at all
I thought so little, they rewarded me
By making me the Ruler of the Queen's Navy
Now, landsmen all, whoever you may be
If you want to rise to the top of the tree
If your soul isn't fettered to an office stool
Be careful to be guided by this golden rule
Stick close to your desks and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of the Queen's Navy
As office boy to an attorney's firm
I cleaned the windows and I swept the floor
And I polished up the handle of the big front door
I polished up that handle so carefully
That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navy
As office boy I made such a mark
That they gave me the post of a junior clerk
I served the writs with a smile so bland
And I copied all the letters in a big round hand
I copied all the letters in a hand so free
That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navy
In serving writs I made such a name
That an articled clerk I soon became
I wore clean collars and a brand-new suit
For the Pass Examination at the Institute
And that Pass Examination did so well for me
That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navy
Of legal knowledge I acquired such a grip
That they took me into the partnership
And that junior partnership I ween
Was the only ship that I ever had seen
But that kind of ship so suited me
That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navy
I grew so rich that I was sent
By a pocket borough into Parliament
I always voted at my Party's call
And I never thought of thinking for myself at all
I thought so little, they rewarded me
By making me the Ruler of the Queen's Navy
Now, landsmen all, whoever you may be
If you want to rise to the top of the tree
If your soul isn't fettered to an office stool
Be careful to be guided by this golden rule
Stick close to your desks and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of the Queen's Navy
TITLE: The First Lord's Song
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Ken,
I gather you don't like the idea of the captain having the final say as to who sits in the jump seat. Why shouldn't he, how many managers have people just come and sit in their office all day, listening to all the conversation business or otherwise, during meals etc? Not many I bet.
The cockpit is a fairly confined environment regardless of aircraft type and the crew (specifically the captain) should have the final say if they are going to share it.
Why should this put your nose so far out of joint?
I gather you don't like the idea of the captain having the final say as to who sits in the jump seat. Why shouldn't he, how many managers have people just come and sit in their office all day, listening to all the conversation business or otherwise, during meals etc? Not many I bet.
The cockpit is a fairly confined environment regardless of aircraft type and the crew (specifically the captain) should have the final say if they are going to share it.
Why should this put your nose so far out of joint?
Ken,
Since you seem to be struggling with the concept of an extra pair of trained pilot eyes in the jumpseat enhancing safety when they are available, let me give you a simple example from my past.
Many years ago back in 1991 , I was sitting in the jumpseat of an Ansett B727 for the descent and landing into Adelaide on a flight from Perth thanks to a Captain who was very happy to have a keen professional general aviation pilot sitting in his cockpit.
As we were on a right base leg for the landing into Adelaide on a nice VFR day, and getting very close to the finals turn, it was my eyes that spotted a Piper Chieftan at our 12oclock low , very close ahead against the ground clutter of the city when boththe Capt and the FO couldnt see it too save themselves ( it happens to us all).
My callout and ID of the traffic and the Captains flying got us safely behind him whereas the situation /spacing would have required a go around by us if the traffic had not been seen for another 10-15sec as we would have flown thru the final approach path and be too close to the traffic to follow at a safe distance down finals.
I'm sure dozens of pilots on here could tell similar jump seat stories.
Since you seem to be struggling with the concept of an extra pair of trained pilot eyes in the jumpseat enhancing safety when they are available, let me give you a simple example from my past.
Many years ago back in 1991 , I was sitting in the jumpseat of an Ansett B727 for the descent and landing into Adelaide on a flight from Perth thanks to a Captain who was very happy to have a keen professional general aviation pilot sitting in his cockpit.
As we were on a right base leg for the landing into Adelaide on a nice VFR day, and getting very close to the finals turn, it was my eyes that spotted a Piper Chieftan at our 12oclock low , very close ahead against the ground clutter of the city when boththe Capt and the FO couldnt see it too save themselves ( it happens to us all).
My callout and ID of the traffic and the Captains flying got us safely behind him whereas the situation /spacing would have required a go around by us if the traffic had not been seen for another 10-15sec as we would have flown thru the final approach path and be too close to the traffic to follow at a safe distance down finals.
I'm sure dozens of pilots on here could tell similar jump seat stories.
I'm sure dozens of pilots on here could tell similar jump seat stories.
Recently operating YBBN-YSSY in a B767 I had a paxing B747 Captain on the jump seat. During climbout we had a minor airconditioning system problem, the FO was PF so the paxing Captain, who also has many years of B767 experience, and I sorted the problem leaving the FO to handle the aircraft and deal with ATC.
Could we have handled the situation without the jump seat rider? Certainly, but having him there ensured that the present level of safety was maintained.
An definite asset having a trained, competent jump seat rider.
Regards,
BH.
Last edited by Bullethead; 4th Mar 2010 at 07:12.