Qantas to Paris
Nunc est bibendum
Going Boeing,using your economic aviation model we will be losing London and Frankfurt as well.
If QF thought they could base techies in LHR for cheaper than they fly us up and back I'm sure they'd go for it. Personally I think they'd struggle to find an appropriate number of Australian licensed 744 crews in London who would be prepared to work for what QF would have to pay in order to save the money compared on operating our guys up and back.
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Have not cabin crew lost most London's to an 'out and back' operation?
Now with the qcca crew there is a big question as to if it is still saving them money.They have already closed down BKK because it wasn't saving them any money and they were not paying the BKK crew much anyway.They still have to pay hotel,food and transport for the london based cabin crew in Singapore,bkk and hkg so it's only the benefit of the cost of london that is in question.The unknown is how much it costs to run the base in london and if that costs more or less than putting up Australian based crew in london.
The airline got their qcca crew so they have achieved what they wanted.
If QF thought they could base techies in LHR for cheaper than they fly us up and back I'm sure they'd go for it.
They have got their pound of flesh with cabin crew costs even if they need qal crew to keep things running on the dugong.
Unless they can get the other crew cost down it will be Jetstar who unfortunately will be flying to places like Rome and paris when they get the aircraft.
I think the possibility of a dugong in Jetstar livery with mainly y/c and a small star class zone a very big possibility.
Posted by Red T Bar,
No,they lost most londons because GD wanted to save money and set up a london base.
No,they lost most londons because GD wanted to save money and set up a london base.
There is pressure on the Frankfurt operation - management has been looking at Jetstar A330/B787 operations into there. The biggest problem is the limited amount of freight that the twins will carry and we currently get a lot of revenue from freight in that port.
The problem with pilot bases in LHR (or FRA) is one of licencing. If Qantas could get sufficient cheap pilots with residential status in the UK (or Germany) that hold an Oz ATPL (needed to fly Oz registered aircraft) they would try it (even though they know they would get serious industrial action). Qantas pick their times to have a stoush with unions so it's possible that they'll try it on in the future.
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Going Boeing,your out and back theory does not work with london or is arguable at best.
It does not matter if the crew operating London to Singapore are based in Sydney,Melbourne or London.The costs are the same,the only difference is that of transport,hotel and food for the London slip.
Now that the airline has qcca crew the question is 'Are the savings made by not slipping Australian crew in London offset by the cost of running the base in London?'
If the cost of running the base is not offset then it will go the same way that the Thai base did and just as suddenly.
They have their cheaper cabin crew,ground staff etc and now the only cost that has stayed higher than jetstar are the pilots wages.
Like I said in my last post.What if they painted a dugong in Jetstar livery and operated them to Frankfurt,Rome,Paris etc.
The only thing we (QF) have to our advantage is the business market.They will not fly Jetstar to and from Europe.
It does not matter if the crew operating London to Singapore are based in Sydney,Melbourne or London.The costs are the same,the only difference is that of transport,hotel and food for the London slip.
Now that the airline has qcca crew the question is 'Are the savings made by not slipping Australian crew in London offset by the cost of running the base in London?'
If the cost of running the base is not offset then it will go the same way that the Thai base did and just as suddenly.
They have their cheaper cabin crew,ground staff etc and now the only cost that has stayed higher than jetstar are the pilots wages.
Like I said in my last post.What if they painted a dugong in Jetstar livery and operated them to Frankfurt,Rome,Paris etc.
The only thing we (QF) have to our advantage is the business market.They will not fly Jetstar to and from Europe.
Nunc est bibendum
The costs are the same,the only difference is that of transport,hotel and food for the London slip.
What are allowances in LHR these days? 80 quid a day? Allow 60 quid for accommodation per person also (it was 84 quid at the hotel for techies a couple of years back). So 140ish GBP per day per cabin crew. Four flights a day times 15 crew is 60 crew in town per day. I make that to be 8500 GBP per day. Three million GBP per annum on those figures.
Next, factor in how much less the LHR based C/C are paid p.a compared to their SYD counterparts.
My point is that out and back always saves money if you can get the personnel. Why haven't we 'lost LHR and FRA'? Cabin crew essentially lost LHR due to the above numbers. Techies are unlikely to lose it in the short to medium term due the issues GB highlights. FRA is unlikely probably due to not being able to get cabin crew at rock low prices.
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factor in how much less the LHR based C/C are paid p.a compared to their SYD counterparts.
Add to that the high turnover in the london base,training,ep's,management and other financial costs involved in running a separate business to QF in the UK.I bet there would be extra work for someone or section in Sydney looking over the London base.
We could always ask the airline for the costing of the base but I have a feeling that you would be waiting a long time.
This comes back to the thread and going back to Paris.I still think that because of the higher cost of QF tech crew that Jetstar will get the nod before we do.
I wonder if any consideration to a daily flight into Paris/Europe will be given if there are more Airbus orders made from Mascot?
If there is then the question is who will get the new airbuses?
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Hey guys....
No point getting excited about anything here.
I am sure that the difference in cost really is negligible - and any decision regarding who what where why and how is not going to be made by anyone debating on Pprune. Sorry chaps.
To purchase aircraft you would have to do appropriate costing for the route structure, landing charges, leasing, hours per annum, crew costs etc etc etc. This is all done before negotiations on who will fly what to where - so the costs are already factored in - and in all likeliness so are the crew that are going to do the work.
Really - it is game over before it begins - and negotiations are only to see if it will get done more cheaply.......
No point getting excited about anything here.
I am sure that the difference in cost really is negligible - and any decision regarding who what where why and how is not going to be made by anyone debating on Pprune. Sorry chaps.
To purchase aircraft you would have to do appropriate costing for the route structure, landing charges, leasing, hours per annum, crew costs etc etc etc. This is all done before negotiations on who will fly what to where - so the costs are already factored in - and in all likeliness so are the crew that are going to do the work.
Really - it is game over before it begins - and negotiations are only to see if it will get done more cheaply.......
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an3_bolt,No need to worry we're only talking and giving our views.No different from talking over crew drinks.
This is about wondering if QF will every go back to paris and anywhere else.My point was about the cost of crewing any new aircraft and the impact of that cost on your decision.
Talking about that costing you hit the nail on the head
an3_bolt,you could not have said it better.All that's left is to ask is which crew is cheaper,Jetstar or QF.
This is about wondering if QF will every go back to paris and anywhere else.My point was about the cost of crewing any new aircraft and the impact of that cost on your decision.
Talking about that costing you hit the nail on the head
To purchase aircraft you would have to do appropriate costing for the route structure, landing charges, leasing, hours per annum, crew costs etc etc etc. This is all done before negotiations on who will fly what to where - so the costs are already factored in - and in all likeliness so are the crew that are going to do the work.
Do you know that a youth hostel is cheaper than the Hilton? The question is, who is most likely going to Paris? The backpacker who usually starts his European adventure in London, or the middle aged couple whose kids have left school and have always wanted a second honeymoon plus a handful of business people?
Stop arguing costs, they're not your problem. Start explaining and showing why someone should pay that little bit more for superior product. It's the little things that make the difference. Having a bulkhead between cabins and galleys, getting someone walk up and down the aisle every twenty minutes with water or wine (I wish). Not having someone with their smelly feet on the seat. Some people don't want to stay in a "Flagg". I haven't seen BMW go broke yet, or better still AUDI (and they're a nicely dressed up VW). Costs are always relevant to doing business but if the cost gets a greater return then you're in front. We have to compete with other full service providers and make a point of difference over low cost carriers, the costs aren't the only thing that counts. We can't all become a captive audience to their mantra. Rant over.
Stop arguing costs, they're not your problem. Start explaining and showing why someone should pay that little bit more for superior product. It's the little things that make the difference. Having a bulkhead between cabins and galleys, getting someone walk up and down the aisle every twenty minutes with water or wine (I wish). Not having someone with their smelly feet on the seat. Some people don't want to stay in a "Flagg". I haven't seen BMW go broke yet, or better still AUDI (and they're a nicely dressed up VW). Costs are always relevant to doing business but if the cost gets a greater return then you're in front. We have to compete with other full service providers and make a point of difference over low cost carriers, the costs aren't the only thing that counts. We can't all become a captive audience to their mantra. Rant over.
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The question is, who is most likely going to Paris? The backpacker who usually starts his European adventure in London
Where is the first place that the tour buses go to when they leave london?
Do you really think that all backpackers just go to the UK?
You got one thing right and thats who is most likely to be going to Paris and I don't think it's the business market.That means the leisure market and guess who they will fly with.Thats right the airline with the cheapest ticket and between QF and Jetstar who will that be?
I haven't seen BMW go broke yet, or better still AUDI (and they're a nicely dressed up VW). Costs are always relevant to doing business but if the cost gets a greater return then you're in front.
If times are tough who do you think retains more market share,the cheaper car makers or the premium car makers?
the costs aren't the only thing that counts. We can't all become a captive audience to their mantra.
If you think costs are not the only thing that counts then don't quit your day job.
Red T bar, QANTAS managers have consistently said that Jetstar has a lower cost base than any other airline in Australia. Why then do Virgin survive? Or indeed QANTAS? Maybe they offer something more worth purchasing? Maybe Virgin's young enthusiastic cabin crew have a service difference? Maybe their frequent flyer program and lounges are it for both airlines over Jetstar and Tiger? They all cost something but it's worth the difference apparently to people who don't just drive Corollas or Hyundais. The problem is when you charge for a premium service and people expect a premium service and they don't get the premium service. One of the greatest indicators for customers is ontime performance. How much the cost? Unfortunately, A380-800 driver has hit the real problem on the head. Their costs probably aren't much different to Jetstar's, however look at the point of difference. I know which one I would like to fly to Paris.
