Foreign Nationals operating domestic Aus sectors

[chimbu warrior]

Ah, ASIC cards........what a monster this is.

I hold an ASIC card, but work for an offshore operator that issues me with their own version of ID/security card. Their requirement is that I wear their ID card only, wherever I go.

I got cornered by a security gorilla at an Australian airport recently and was told in no uncertain terms (albeit in broken English by someone whom I suspect is a recent arrival) that under no circumstances was I permitted on the tarmac, and I would be in breach of Australian law if i did a pre-flight walkaround inspection.

My explanation that the company I fly for has a DOTRS-approved security program fell on deaf ears, as did my comment that I have been flying in and out of this particular airport for almost 30 years.

Like By George, I am a fugitive in my home country.

[Metro man]

Foreign crews (including F/As) are not required to display ASICs in secure areas, an airline ID and uniform are sufficient. The lawful reason for entry requirement also applies.

From the Aviation Transport Security Regulations:
3.05 Crew of foreign and state aircraft etc
Despite regulation 3.03, the following people need not display
an ASIC in a secure area:
(a) a person who is a member of the crew of a foreign aircraft
(other than a state aircraft) that is engaged in a regular
public transport operation or a charter operation and who:
(i) is in the uniform of the aircraft operator; and
(ii) displays appropriate identification issued or
authorised by the aircraft operator:

But these F/As are on AUSTRALIAN registered aircraft not foreign registered so 3.05(a) would not apply to them.

If they don't require ASICs because they are foreign crews then they have no business working in Australia on domestic sectors operated by an Australian airline. Let them obtain work permits first. Jetstar can justify to immigration why they cannot find locals to act as cabin crew within Australia.

Suppose Air Niugini DHC8 crews came to Cairns and started operating for SKYTRANS flying "tag" sectors to Townsville.

[Jabawocky]

I hold an ASIC card, but work for an offshore operator that issues me with their own version of ID/security card. Their requirement is that I wear their ID card only, wherever I go.

Where ever you go? In breach again big fella.....I do not recall seeing you preflight on Sunday with your security pass showing!

J

[Cypher]

The issue is foreign crew operating domestic sectors, it matters not which rego the aircraft has (VH in this case)

Is the issue really;

The issue is foreign crew operating domestic sectors, it matters not which rego the aircraft has (VH in this case), with these flights freely available for purchase by the Australian public.

I take it there wouldn't be an issue if JQ62 was only available for purchase as a domestic sector outside of Australia by international pax.

[Worrals in the wilds]

Metro man, my apologies. There doesn't seem to be a section in the Regs that covers this scenario . This could mean that the creator of the Regulations hadn't struck this before.

Immigration Dob-In Line

The above link is for Immigration's compliance people. If the issue's bugging you, they're probably worth a call, either for the correct answer (if it's legit) or to investigate (if it isn't). It probably depends on what Australian visas these crew hold, if any. If they do hold 457s sponsored by Jetstar, there is no reason why they can't work. The question would be how Jetstar was able to sponsor them when there are plenty of suitable applicants in Australia.

[dodgybrothers]

I had a think about two scenarios. Do UA pick up pax ex SYD to MEL when they are doing their shuttle between the two cities? Im quite sure they aren't allowed as that would constitute cabotage but their crews are allowed to operate because it is a continuation of an existing international service. Could qantas do the same thing? Yes because they are allowed to pick up domestic pax and the they do.

Could the QF flighties get off the the 747s in LA and operate a UA domestic service because they might be cheaper than the UA crews? Absolutely not.

Jetstar are entitled to operate their international flights as domestic tags there is also no question about that. If the cabin crew are not Australians nor do they have the legal right to work here in oz, then it is certainly a matter for immigration to deal with. They do have asics, I have seen them, but if they come through customs and immigration on a gen dec then I cannot see how Jetstar can then on-sell that flight as domestic tag as it is no longer an international service once it has cleared customs and the crew are therefore operating as illegal workers, if the company is selling additional seats ex the international port of entry to wherever domestically.

No wonder the govt is taking a very dim view and customs has asked jetstar for a please explain, I just wonder where the FAAA stance is on this.

[DrPepz]

I was clearing my emails and came across an email some sent me regarding the SQ cabin crew meal allowances for 2005:

(In S$, in order of Breakfast, Lunch and Dinner)
Australia /
New Zealand
43
76
97

Orient
36
79
96

Europe
63
102
128

Middle East
34
60
76

USA / Canada
32
65
85

South East Asia
20
36
45

South Asia
25
45
58

South Africa
30
56
73

Japan
61
96
125

Just remember that this was from 2005. It probably has gone up, since we're nearly 5 years down the road.

From what I remember from a newspaper article, in addition to their basic salary, SQ cabin crew get in addition to the above:

1) An overnight allowance
2) $8 an hour for the first 8 hours of flying and $12 after that, for each sector. Flying duty for the sector commences from when the cabin crew arrives at Changi Airport and ends when they leave the overseas airport upon arrival. For turnaround flights, it starts when they enter Changi Airport and ends when they leave Changi Airport

3)Their basic salary (which is around S$1500 a month for entry level staff, I think inflight supervisors are on $6k ro $7k fixed ++ usually multiplied by anywhere from 13 to 18 months of salary a year depending on thecompany performance. For the last FY it was multiplied by 17 months while for this FY it will probably me multipled by 14 months if even, since SQ is unlikely to break even.)

As such, SQ cabin crew are basically casual staff with a very low fixed salary and a very high variable salary. Looking at their allowances, they are by no means underpaid even compared to their Western counterparts.

A SIN-FRA-JFK return leg could net them nearly S$2000 in allowances and duty pay.

If Tiger and Jetstar Asia are paying that much lower than SQ (I don't know how much they pay), then obviously they would be getting staff of a completely different league. You pay peanuts, you get donkeys.

I know Tiger has gotten interns from Singaporean polytechnics to "intern" as cabin crew, and paid them an intern "allowance" (probably a few hundred dollars a month). It wouldn't surprise me if they try to get away with paying as little as possible.

[Metro man]

Jetstar/Tiger cabin crew would be on around SG$2000/month depending on the type of contract and volume of sales commission. Lowest would be interns and some foreigners who might make around SG$1500 (possibly less). Senior local with good selling ability should be on over $2000.

No way comparable to SQ in terms of pay and conditions. SQ flight attendant is a fairly prestigious job and the standards are very high, as you would expect with a 5* airline.

Low pay doesn't necessarily reflect on the quality of staff, simply put low skilled jobs here pay very poorly and high skilled ones very well. A checkout operator may work sixty hours a week for SG$1500/ month and be quite happy because it's ten times what they could make in their own country.

The work ethic is different to Australia as well, people expect to work hard for a living without the culture of entitlement, ie no dole. There is no weighing up whether you would be better off taking a job or staying home on welfare, government attitude is there is work available for those that want it, those that don't aren't going to be subsidised.

Believe me, the quality of people working but low paid is considerably better than Australias career welfare spongers who wouldn't dream of taking a job.

[twiggs]

Metro man, going by the posts on another forum, you are a little high on your estimates.
SG$700-850 is being quoted as basic monthly for Jetstar, so you would have to do a lot of selling to get to $2000 from that.
Singapore expats forum

DrPepz, SQ crew would be lucky to take home SG$5000 per month including allowances and most are probably on SG$3500-4000.
(and are working their rings off)

[Metro man]

Each cabin crew member may get around 4% of total sales as commission. A good flight might sell $2000 = $80 commission. Most flights would be below this however with some short sectors being negligable, but working +/- 20 days per month it certainly builds up. Pay is variable depending on the contract and sales ability, but it gives a rough idea of earnings.

[DrPepz]

Metroman:

Please stop flattering Singaporeans on not having a sense of entitlement etc.... (I'm a Singaporean myself)

Basically, the government has opened the floodgates for all sorts of low skilled foreigners to take lower skilled jobs in hospitality and retail, the wages for such jobs have been severely depressed over the past decade. Well over half of retail and service type jobs in Singapore are now taken by foreigners like Chinese nationals and Malaysians.

Singaporeans generally have as great a sense of self-entitlement as Australians. Singaporeans won't do work which requires them getting their hands dirty, long hours, working weekends, shifts etc etc etc.

There is even a facebook page called "I am Singaporean and sick of service staff who can only speak Mandarin"

As a result, native born and bred Singaporeans will eventually become like the EMIRATIS in terms of work ethic, except that we have no oil!

The end result is skilled jobs here (graduate jobs and above) generally pay similarly to what you'd get in Australia (esp post tax), and unskilled jobs have salaries that are generally being depressed towards developing country levels, since people from China would gladly work for 12 hours a day for $1200 a month as a check out chick, seeing as in China they'd get the equivalent of $200 a month for the same job.

[DrPepz]

Twiggs: Let's do the sums on what an entry level SQ flight attendant would have earned in the last FY:

Basic salary of $1500 * 17 months = $25,500
2000 hours of flying: 2000 * 9 = $18,000
Meal allowances: 80 nights * 120 = about $10,000
Overnight allowances: I don't know

Total excluding overnight allowances: $53,500

My former colleague who quit SQ after flying for them for 2 years to join our company said she took a substantial paycut by joining corporate at an entry level grad position, and back then we were on about S$50ish k per year.

So I wouldn't even dream of calling SQ cabin crew underpaid, though this year they probably had far fewer hours since flights were cancelled.

If Jetstar is paying less than half of what SQ is (even after all the hard selling through inflight sales), why is it that people join them? There are plenty of jobs in Singapore that pay more than $2000 a month fixed with guaranteed 13 months of payment or more.

[tail wheel]

The Asian FA's will not be working on 457 Visas, which are only available to ASCO Code 1000 to 4000.

ASCO Code 599613 - Flight Attendant
ASCO Code 599611 - Flight Service Director

Foreign Workers on 457 Visas are required to be paid "industry standard" wages (previously an MSL of $41,850 pa.)

[skybed]

there are

a few ex SQ F/A's (even CSM's) in Qf now. if you ask them about their wages in SQ they tell you a little (not much) less then in Qf but you get all the benefits of locals in Sin. Mortgages at very low rates, health system which actually works, etc. on balance not too bad, but there are always different ways of looking at it.

[airsupport]

I really cannot see what all the fuss is about.

Over the years I have flown all over the World with Aussie registered aircraft, on Aussie AOCs, with Aussie Pilots and Cabin Crew.

This includes both internationally and domestically in the USA, although we did have Crew Visas, and internationally AND also domestically in Vietnam where we had NO special Visas or work permits.

So doesn't it work both ways?

[Metro man]

Where you operating scheduled domestic airservices in Vietnam with seats generally available to the public ?

If so was the aircraft wet leased to a Vietnamese operator.

Are Jetstar Australia wet leasing aircraft from Jetstar Asia ?

(A wet lease is a leasing arrangement whereby one airline (lessor) provides an aircraft, complete crew, maintenance, and insurance (ACMI) to another airline (lessee), which pays by hours operated. The lessee provides fuel, covers airport fees, and any other duties, taxes, etc. The flight uses the flight number of the lessee. A wet lease generally lasts one month to two years; anything less would be considered an ad-hoc charter.)

So doesn't it work both ways?

Not necessarily, just because you can do something in one country doesn't mean you can do it in another.

Eg. You can bring fresh meat, fruit, vegetables into Singapore from Australia. Try bringing a single piece of fruit into Australia from Singapore.

[airsupport]

Were you operating scheduled domestic airservices in Vietnam with seats generally available to the public ?

If so was the aircraft wet leased to a Vietnamese operator.

Are Jetstar Australia wet leasing aircraft from Jetstar Asia ?

That would be yes, yes, and how would I know.

Yes mainly all their International flights at the time, but also some domestic flights between Saigon and Hanoi.

Yes it was a wet lease, and to be fair most of the Cabin Crew were Vietnamese, as were some Pilots after a while, but the Pursers, Engineers, Captains and most of the First Officers were Aussies.

Just seems a bit of a double standard to me, nobody objected to us being there.

[Metro man]

So the wet lease to operate in Vietnam would have been approved by the appropriate agencies over there and all necessary permission obtained. ie palms greased.

So do Jetstar have the appropriate permission/permits/visas to operate with foreign crews in Australia or can identify which regulations allow them to do so ?

[frigatebird]

So Summa, do you think we will hear 'someone in management' got a fine and a kick up the b.m in due course, for approving it in the first place..?

Have worked in o'seas countries where the red tape paper pushers (who do little other useful work, and get in the way, mosttimes), ENSURE that foreign nationals have fee-paid-in-advance Work Permit and Residency Permit organised by the airline to comply with local laws. Or they are on a plane out. One favourite rule is that they can't even be approved/issued while the person is actually in the country at the time. Have had to send a new pilot out of the country on an afternoon flight, rush the papers to the Government office for stamping, and bring him back the next morning.

Can't see that happening in an 'enlightened' developed country like Australia. More likely someone in Government in Immigration will just say that they didn't know it was happening, hadn't been informed (what do the staff DO), bend the rules 'this once' (just like with the boat people who lob up on the coast and expect to be welcome, Australia is a big country- but they aren't aware most of it is desert and getting drier with water shortages, but then, of course, they don't plan to live in the centre bits), slap a wrist, -no fine or something that would be a proper PENALTY to not consider it again. Its the laid back Aussie way M-a-a-t-e, give people the benefit of the doubt, don't do it again, look after the rest of the World but tax the Australian employee (the ones left with a job) to pay for it all.
Slap an Executive or a Company with a BIG DISINCENTIVE,
-NO WAY.

[airsupport]

So the wet lease to operate in Vietnam would have been approved by the appropriate agencies over there and all necessary permission obtained.

Well yes of course, we operated AS the Government owned Vietnam Airlines, but you could still say that in those days we were doing jobs that Vietnamese ''should'' have been doing.