VB hires Ejet Direct Entry Captains
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Easy Peazy,
Just keep lowering the acceptable standards until the pass rate reaches requirements.
Sausage factory pilot training ONE-0-ONE.
That's sure to improve KPI's
Now where's my bonus!
Just keep lowering the acceptable standards until the pass rate reaches requirements.
Sausage factory pilot training ONE-0-ONE.
That's sure to improve KPI's
Now where's my bonus!
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Aviation is chock-ful of arbitrary writing. Most all Ops Manuals have arbitrary minimums like 1500 hours to start, 3500 hours for a command etc. But then go on to say that the company can vary it if the mood suits.
Many numbers quoted in the regulations are also arbitrary. 500ft vertically and 2000ft horizontally from cloud is one such example that has been with us for many years. How to measure it in flight? How to enforce the unenforceable?
The practise here of quoting sections of statements is a bit like selective TV journalism. Like where they interview someone and get a full statement, but only air snippets to make their own case or to make the other person look bad.
Many numbers quoted in the regulations are also arbitrary. 500ft vertically and 2000ft horizontally from cloud is one such example that has been with us for many years. How to measure it in flight? How to enforce the unenforceable?
The practise here of quoting sections of statements is a bit like selective TV journalism. Like where they interview someone and get a full statement, but only air snippets to make their own case or to make the other person look bad.
Last edited by gas-chamber; 17th Nov 2009 at 01:22.
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Well Apparently the two direct entry captains have started and the company has not responded to the afap's letters to confirm this. (thats from the afap themselves)
Very disappointing. Piss off 800 pilots to bring in 2. (Who will be as popular as .....well you guys get it.)
Very disappointing. Piss off 800 pilots to bring in 2. (Who will be as popular as .....well you guys get it.)
If that's the case, then why aren't the AFAP and the company already in the IRC?
Perhaps once the "letter" from DJ confirms the appointment, that's exactly were they will be.
Perhaps once the "letter" from DJ confirms the appointment, that's exactly were they will be.
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Perhaps once the "letter" from DJ confirms the appointment, that's exactly were they will be.
The only way to "fix" this problem is to take industrial action and get serious about objecting to being pushed around by Management.
Can you see that happening Krusty..............no, I didn't think so.
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Seniority and Career Path
hey guys - just going to have to wind you up here but what is wrong with DEc's?
If you were to ask anyone in the other than aviation world about promotions etc it is based around the best man for the job principle.
yes I know aviation is different but the travelling public dont see it that way - they expect the best and most qualified pilots to be driving them around... they are in no way concerned with who got the number from the KFC que first..so with that in mind if a company can get a qualified , experienced captain or crew externally and not pay rating costs etc then so be it. I would expect the shareholders would see if that way...
Of course trying to explain to punters that the pilot profession is unlike others and we cant just transfer around is another thing altogether...
will await incoming for making such a bold statement that bypasses the sacred seniority cow... I would think VB would know what their legal options to employ DECS is before doing so..maybe??
WJA
If you were to ask anyone in the other than aviation world about promotions etc it is based around the best man for the job principle.
yes I know aviation is different but the travelling public dont see it that way - they expect the best and most qualified pilots to be driving them around... they are in no way concerned with who got the number from the KFC que first..so with that in mind if a company can get a qualified , experienced captain or crew externally and not pay rating costs etc then so be it. I would expect the shareholders would see if that way...
Of course trying to explain to punters that the pilot profession is unlike others and we cant just transfer around is another thing altogether...
will await incoming for making such a bold statement that bypasses the sacred seniority cow... I would think VB would know what their legal options to employ DECS is before doing so..maybe??
WJA
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I would think VB would know what their legal options to employ DECS is before doing so..maybe??
However, you can do whatever the hell you like, when there is no one to fight you.
Who is going to take VB management to court to fight this? VIPA? AFAP? independant group of pilots?
Management KNOw that they can ride roughshod over the EBA, and will continue to do so until such time as SOMEBODY has the b@lls to stand up to them.
and it is NOT just VB. Any company in the world who knows that something is dodgy, but cheap will do so IF they think that they can get away with it. Can you imagine being a fly on the wall at the manpower meeting:
manager A: "ok, we can save $xxxx by empoloying DEC's off the street ahead instead of upgrading others"
Manager B: " the pilot body won't like that!!!"
Manager A: " yeah I know. but what are THEY gonna do about it? "
Manager B: "................... ummm............. yeah................. I see your point."
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if you were to ask anyone in the other than aviation world about promotions etc it is based around the best man for the job principle....yes I know aviation is different
Seniority is driving down terms and conditions as it dilutes an individuals competitive advantage. Seniority is a contributing factor to the decline in the industry, while other executive roles continue to go from strength to strength.
A clear example of this was the extreme shortage of pilots 2 years ago yet there was no significant increase in terms and conditions. Why? Because experienced captains could not enter airlines at the command level - rather join at the bottom. Think about it.
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Any competent pilot with 1000 hours Metro and 500 jet should be able to make command on ANY contemporary civil jet. Contrary to what some would believe, all modern jets are pisseasy to fly.
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yes I know aviation is different but the travelling public dont see it that way - they expect the best and most qualified pilots to be driving them around
Make no mistake, this sort of move has absolutely nothing to do with safety and everything to do with economic convenience. It costs a few bucks & a couple of months to train F/O's; & F/O position on an Emb is an unpopular/difficult position to fill due to being underpaid.
Seniority is driving down terms and conditions as it dilutes an individuals competitive advantage. Seniority is a contributing factor to the decline in the industry, while other executive roles continue to go from strength to strength.
Are you seriously suggesting that collective bargaining should be dropped in preference to individual contracts? Perhaps we should be more like GA, individualism has worked well there.
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I would suggest collective bargaining and seniority are two very different subjects.
Many organisations bargain collectively and also have a competitive promotion system. It's about getting the best person for the job, not the next in line for it.
A seniority list protects those towards the bottom of a 'food chain' and leaves those near the top with little or no bargaining power.
Think about it for a minute.... If you could tell VB to get stuffed and slot in at the same level (or higher) at JQ, QF, CX or the Kitty Cat you have bargaining power. Or, if a disgruntled REX Captain could move over to QF Link at the same level, he has bargaining power. At the moment management know you won't leave in droves (generally) because you'll have to start at the bottom as a SO or FO somewhere else. Changing jobs is like starting a new career (for Pilots) because of the seniority systems in place at most airlines. I suppose the exception is contract flying or a DEC position of course
If there is going to be a "real" pilot shortage in a few years time then removing seniority lists may well be the best way to drive up T&C's for experienced crew
Many organisations bargain collectively and also have a competitive promotion system. It's about getting the best person for the job, not the next in line for it.
A seniority list protects those towards the bottom of a 'food chain' and leaves those near the top with little or no bargaining power.
Think about it for a minute.... If you could tell VB to get stuffed and slot in at the same level (or higher) at JQ, QF, CX or the Kitty Cat you have bargaining power. Or, if a disgruntled REX Captain could move over to QF Link at the same level, he has bargaining power. At the moment management know you won't leave in droves (generally) because you'll have to start at the bottom as a SO or FO somewhere else. Changing jobs is like starting a new career (for Pilots) because of the seniority systems in place at most airlines. I suppose the exception is contract flying or a DEC position of course
If there is going to be a "real" pilot shortage in a few years time then removing seniority lists may well be the best way to drive up T&C's for experienced crew
Getting rid of seniority certainly does not guarantee that the company gets the best people for the job. It opens up the opportunity for nepotism (which of course can happen in any non-seniority based company, whether aviation or not), but more specifically, the awarding of positions for purely commercial reasons. This is more unique to aviation because the training costs are so much higher, as has been mentioned. In this economic day and age, why would a company then choose to promote from within?
T&C's would most likely go down, due to the increased supply of pilots returning from o/s. Once they run out, companies will lobby for more 457 visas. In turn this leads to a pilot group who has no incentive to improve conditions (retiring soon or company sponsored). Currently this happens with startups, imagine if their (Tiger, VA, etc) T&C's were the norm?
T&C's would most likely go down, due to the increased supply of pilots returning from o/s. Once they run out, companies will lobby for more 457 visas. In turn this leads to a pilot group who has no incentive to improve conditions (retiring soon or company sponsored). Currently this happens with startups, imagine if their (Tiger, VA, etc) T&C's were the norm?
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Many organisations bargain collectively and also have a competitive promotion system. It's about getting the best person for the job, not the next in line for it.
Think about it for a minute.... If you could tell VB to get stuffed and slot in at the same level (or higher) at JQ, QF, CX or the Kitty Cat you have bargaining power. Or, if a disgruntled REX Captain could move over to QF Link at the same level, he has bargaining power. At the moment management know you won't leave in droves (generally) because you'll have to start at the bottom as a SO or FO somewhere else. Changing jobs is like starting a new career (for Pilots) because of the seniority systems in place at most airlines. I suppose the exception is contract flying or a DEC position of course
Whilst captains are playing musical chairs their expat counterparts would surely flood the market to get home (who wouldn't) = Lower conditions.
FO's & SO's would forever stagnate unless they find that elusive command time & so will go to the lowest paid operator to do so or worse still, enter into a payment agreement for command time = Lower conditions.
However I do admit that my hypocrisy knows no bounds, in so far as I believe that Pilots leaving an Australian airline to work as an expatriate should be allowed a window of opportunity to return with diminishing seniority commensurate with time absent. This would reduce the incidence of expats accepting lower T&C's just to return home.
A clear example of this was the extreme shortage of pilots 2 years ago yet there was no significant increase in terms and conditions. Why? Because experienced captains could not enter airlines at the command level - rather join at the bottom. Think about it.
That's what really happened. Over in WA the same would have happened except that I think the mining companies who have had the gun held to their heads in terms of salaries may put some subtle pressure on the charter operators to start paying some decent coin.
What we also saw was a ridiculous reduction of the minimum requirements that were once apparently written in stone.
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Sorry guys, didnt read this thread till just now, and couldn't be bothered re-reading the same arguments so I may be repeating someone else however.
Why is everyone so surprised VB is not treating their pilots well, they chose most of you guys because you were the first lot of guys that were willing to pay for your own training in a time when this was not the norm, just so you could call yourself an airline pilot, and jump ahead of the guys above you with real experience and morals, Then after the training that you paid for you were paid a lower than average salary for an airline job in that day. The management at VB picked most of you for your morals not your experience so that could use this to control the pilot group in the future.
I have a number of friends in there, even they have commented on this and you cant make a stand on anything because there are enough people in VB that will sell you out for your position, which is a shame because there are a lot of great guys and girls there too.
You guys made the bed :-), now your complaining again come on. its life same way you got in others are getting in, it's the true VB way.
and to head a couple of comments off, No I have never applied, and never will apply I have a good job!
(Ducking now)
Why is everyone so surprised VB is not treating their pilots well, they chose most of you guys because you were the first lot of guys that were willing to pay for your own training in a time when this was not the norm, just so you could call yourself an airline pilot, and jump ahead of the guys above you with real experience and morals, Then after the training that you paid for you were paid a lower than average salary for an airline job in that day. The management at VB picked most of you for your morals not your experience so that could use this to control the pilot group in the future.
I have a number of friends in there, even they have commented on this and you cant make a stand on anything because there are enough people in VB that will sell you out for your position, which is a shame because there are a lot of great guys and girls there too.
You guys made the bed :-), now your complaining again come on. its life same way you got in others are getting in, it's the true VB way.
and to head a couple of comments off, No I have never applied, and never will apply I have a good job!
(Ducking now)
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Why is everyone so surprised VB is not treating their pilots well, they chose most of you guys because you were the first lot of guys that were willing to pay for your own training in a time when this was not the norm
I have a number of friends in there, even they have commented on this and you cant make a stand on anything because there are enough people in VB that will sell you out for your position
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Hear Hear Captain K !
No need to duck as you speak the truth and another thing. There are a number of Captains on the 737 and JJet that got their Commands, shall we say, out of "seniority" order so the precedent had been already set for DECs.
You see in this game you cannot say one thing and do another when it suits. Play by the rules ALL the time and you won't have a problem.
Unfortunately the rules were set a long time ago and there ain't no turning back now. As Captain Kellogs has alluded to - you guys made your bed and now you are going to have to lay in it.
No need to duck as you speak the truth and another thing. There are a number of Captains on the 737 and JJet that got their Commands, shall we say, out of "seniority" order so the precedent had been already set for DECs.
You see in this game you cannot say one thing and do another when it suits. Play by the rules ALL the time and you won't have a problem.
Unfortunately the rules were set a long time ago and there ain't no turning back now. As Captain Kellogs has alluded to - you guys made your bed and now you are going to have to lay in it.