Another Qantas incident
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Sure I wasn't there and all the stuff about 'it can happen to anyone... bla bla bla' but...
I don't care about how many distractions there were going on at the time. If the crew were so distracted about something else that they simply forgot to extend the gear they shouldn't have been continuing the approach anyway. Go around sort out all the issues that are preventing you from operating to the SOP's and start again.
Two pretty serious incidents in recent times if you ask me. The first being the 'almost' fuel deprived flight from PER to SYD (see ATSB report). Now this.
I don't care about how many distractions there were going on at the time. If the crew were so distracted about something else that they simply forgot to extend the gear they shouldn't have been continuing the approach anyway. Go around sort out all the issues that are preventing you from operating to the SOP's and start again.
Two pretty serious incidents in recent times if you ask me. The first being the 'almost' fuel deprived flight from PER to SYD (see ATSB report). Now this.
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See ATSB report here
Nowhere is it stated that the crew forgot to select gear down. Pure speculation - maybe the journos have concluded that from the egpws warning.
Wait for the final report before writing the crew off.
Nowhere is it stated that the crew forgot to select gear down. Pure speculation - maybe the journos have concluded that from the egpws warning.
Wait for the final report before writing the crew off.
Nunc est bibendum
Can you have landing flap without gear, without a bloody great horn going off?
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I'm also wondering if continual worrying about the future, continual assigned leave,continual fear campaigns by managment to destabilise the pilot's resolve, the continual changes in procedures, all in the name of cost reductions and apparently change for changes sake had anything to do with this?
There might be some truth in the rumour that you need to do a wheels up landing of some sort to get into Qantas. It looks like the practice still continues amongst the pilots even when in Qantas.
I am sure many off you have seen the GA monopoly board with the square "wheels up landing, straight to the Qantas hold file".
Before you all start having a go at me, I am not the one who designed this monopoly board. I am only pointing something out.
Now sorry if offended anyone,
just a bit of humour.
I admit I make mistakes just like any other pilot and I aware this can can happen to anyone and any airline, including me
Best wishes to the pilots involved and I hope we can all learn something from this.
I am sure many off you have seen the GA monopoly board with the square "wheels up landing, straight to the Qantas hold file".
Before you all start having a go at me, I am not the one who designed this monopoly board. I am only pointing something out.
Now sorry if offended anyone,
just a bit of humour. I admit I make mistakes just like any other pilot and I aware this can can happen to anyone and any airline, including me
Best wishes to the pilots involved and I hope we can all learn something from this.
Last edited by John Citizen; 4th Nov 2009 at 05:50.
Pilot error epidemic
As I read these posts an ad for tonights "7pm Project has come on to discuss the growing pilot error epidemic....grrh.
What about when the media get their facts wrong - Journalist error epidemic.
What about when the media get their facts wrong - Journalist error epidemic.
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Can you have landing flap without gear, without a bloody great horn going off?
My guess is the flaps were in a different position (and the gear not down), so the config warning only happened at 800 ft - but that is just a guess
Time will tell. I've always thought Ben's writings exposed himself to abuse from knowledgeable people.
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I wonder if Ben has read the journalism code of ethics by the AJA? It might do him some good. Code of ethics and journalism in the same sentence ... what an oxymoron!
For all those professional pilots (not the QF or pilot bashers) on here, time will tell. Don't jump to conclusions without the facts. "Discretion is the better part of valour".
For all those professional pilots (not the QF or pilot bashers) on here, time will tell. Don't jump to conclusions without the facts. "Discretion is the better part of valour".
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When I joined an Australian airline as a very junior F/O some 46 yrs ago, a wise old DC3 Captain and ex WW2 Spitfire pilot said to me..." Son, let me tell you three things you should never forget if you want to have a successful airline career "...
1. Never forget to put the wheels down!
2. Never run out of fuel!
3. Never forget that the airline is NOT here to service the pax, rather, the pax are here to service the airline!
I can still feel his big hand on my puny shoulder all those years ago. How a big bugger like him fitted into a Spit I'll never know. He died a couple of weeks ago!
Keep his advice in mind and you should have a successful career!
1. Never forget to put the wheels down!
2. Never run out of fuel!
3. Never forget that the airline is NOT here to service the pax, rather, the pax are here to service the airline!
I can still feel his big hand on my puny shoulder all those years ago. How a big bugger like him fitted into a Spit I'll never know. He died a couple of weeks ago!
Keep his advice in mind and you should have a successful career!
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Reasons Lament
Groaner,
May I suggest, that if you want to talk in terms of the Reason model, the Qantas spin doctor response was really saying that the holes in the swiss cheese didn't line up.
For whatever reason a go-around was performed followed by a safe landing. One of the defences in place prevented an attempted landing in an unsafe configuration.
Y'know, the thing that gets me is the Qantas auto-response "There was no risk" and "There was no flight safety issue".
That's the same as saying "There are no holes in my Swiss cheese." When there clearly were in this case.
That's the same as saying "There are no holes in my Swiss cheese." When there clearly were in this case.
For whatever reason a go-around was performed followed by a safe landing. One of the defences in place prevented an attempted landing in an unsafe configuration.
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A Reasonable Response
Spot on Gary !!
Defences certainly played a great part in keeping this incident just that,an incident.
Defence 1-Pilot Training. Regardless of the mistake made. They recovered the situation.
Defence 2 - S.O.P's. Again, a mistake was made, but the Drivers mitigated and recovered the situation by following Standard Operating Procedures.
Defence 3 - Crew communication. It is likely that the Drivers prior CRM training within QF assisted in the eventual safe landing.
Defence 4 - Technology ( aircraft type ).Aural warning systems and equipment design also was a defence that kicked in.
This is just a couple of defences that did their job on the day.There is probably more that could be added. Naturally on the reverse, throughout the investiagtion process the representatives condcuting the investigation will work back through the 'holes' to determine the how,when,where's and why's so as to paint a full picture of the causal factors in this case.
Lets see the media print that !!
For whatever reason a go-around was performed followed by a safe landing. One of the defences in place prevented an attempted landing in an unsafe configuration.
Defence 1-Pilot Training. Regardless of the mistake made. They recovered the situation.
Defence 2 - S.O.P's. Again, a mistake was made, but the Drivers mitigated and recovered the situation by following Standard Operating Procedures.
Defence 3 - Crew communication. It is likely that the Drivers prior CRM training within QF assisted in the eventual safe landing.
Defence 4 - Technology ( aircraft type ).Aural warning systems and equipment design also was a defence that kicked in.
This is just a couple of defences that did their job on the day.There is probably more that could be added. Naturally on the reverse, throughout the investiagtion process the representatives condcuting the investigation will work back through the 'holes' to determine the how,when,where's and why's so as to paint a full picture of the causal factors in this case.
Lets see the media print that !!
Last edited by Cactusjack; 4th Nov 2009 at 09:21.
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unsuspecting punters fat, dumb and happy coz they b
Well the ATSB report states that they commenced the go-around due to being incorrectly configured and DURING the go-around, the EGPWS alert of 'too low gear' sounded. As far as I'm aware the EGPWS alert 4A only goes off below 500'AGL and at a speed of less than about 160kts. As the report states that this alert sounded, they must have ducked below these qualifiers during the go around and not commenced the go around due to the EGPWS gear alert. From memory though, a 'too low terrain' alert should have sounded before the 'too low gear' alert somewhere between 1000-500AGL (dependent on their IAS)?
Hard luck lads, thoughts are with you. Hope the report shows it to be favourable in your direction as any of us could be caught in this situation with the right combination of factors.
Cheers
Hard luck lads, thoughts are with you. Hope the report shows it to be favourable in your direction as any of us could be caught in this situation with the right combination of factors.
Cheers
Mmmmm PPruuune!
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Perhaps they were too engrossed with crewing issues on their laptops?
Seriously, chin up chaps not exactly a non-event but not quite the disaster the media would have you believe. I hope the media circus doesn't influence the outcome.
Seriously, chin up chaps not exactly a non-event but not quite the disaster the media would have you believe. I hope the media circus doesn't influence the outcome.
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There seems to be quite a few "how could this type of thing ever happen in an RPT airline", written by Disgusted Of Microsoft. Let me paint a picture and see if we're al impervious:
767 coming down the slope at Flap 5, Vref+40 and the speed's beginning to go a bit high due lack of headwind (or whatever). Okay, let's select Flap 20. I know, all you perfectionists; don't use the flaps for drag
but I'm flying in the real world. Now, we all know how we are programmed to do certain things. The normal call is 'gear down, flap 20', so you can see where I'm going here. When not sitting in a comfortable armchair, where evrything is surrealy perfect, the mindest of a normal pilot would be that Flap 20 normally means he has has the gear down, so the bells are not ringing in his head telling him something's wrong. The other thing is the checklist; well that always comes with 'gear down, flap 20' doesn't it? So, once again, cranial alarm bells are silent.
It doesn't take a lot for something like this to happen because we do so many 'actions' so ofetn that we become programmed to know that when such-and-such has been done, then something else must have been done (one reason I always write silly notes-to-self when doing a Flap 15 take-off, for example).
Having got into an undesireable situation the crew did the correct thing, they went around. Yes, Mr Journalist, amazingly the aircraft did continue its descent for a short period. If you look up Mr Newton and 'Gravity' you'll find a few clues as to the reason.
Qantas have done the right thing, I believe, by suspending the pilots while they investigate the incident, This protects the pilots and the airline and allows far easier 'probing' by the relevant parties. The reasons for the ommission will be established and hopefully published in order to educate those who might do exactly the same one day. The pilots, IF REQUIRED, will undergo additional training to prevent it ever happening to them again and you can bet your arse it won't.
So, yes, we are all human and things like this will always happen because, as has already been pointed out, we are not 100% perfect. Those who think they are are in far a big fall but I'm yet to meet one of those pilots. It's what we do when we get into an imperfect situation that's important and these guys did the right thing.
767 coming down the slope at Flap 5, Vref+40 and the speed's beginning to go a bit high due lack of headwind (or whatever). Okay, let's select Flap 20. I know, all you perfectionists; don't use the flaps for drag
but I'm flying in the real world. Now, we all know how we are programmed to do certain things. The normal call is 'gear down, flap 20', so you can see where I'm going here. When not sitting in a comfortable armchair, where evrything is surrealy perfect, the mindest of a normal pilot would be that Flap 20 normally means he has has the gear down, so the bells are not ringing in his head telling him something's wrong. The other thing is the checklist; well that always comes with 'gear down, flap 20' doesn't it? So, once again, cranial alarm bells are silent. It doesn't take a lot for something like this to happen because we do so many 'actions' so ofetn that we become programmed to know that when such-and-such has been done, then something else must have been done (one reason I always write silly notes-to-self when doing a Flap 15 take-off, for example).
Having got into an undesireable situation the crew did the correct thing, they went around. Yes, Mr Journalist, amazingly the aircraft did continue its descent for a short period. If you look up Mr Newton and 'Gravity' you'll find a few clues as to the reason.
Qantas have done the right thing, I believe, by suspending the pilots while they investigate the incident, This protects the pilots and the airline and allows far easier 'probing' by the relevant parties. The reasons for the ommission will be established and hopefully published in order to educate those who might do exactly the same one day. The pilots, IF REQUIRED, will undergo additional training to prevent it ever happening to them again and you can bet your arse it won't.
So, yes, we are all human and things like this will always happen because, as has already been pointed out, we are not 100% perfect. Those who think they are are in far a big fall but I'm yet to meet one of those pilots. It's what we do when we get into an imperfect situation that's important and these guys did the right thing.
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No facts. Lets hang the crew!! Any real pro flight deck crew would empathize with these guys!! This is our operating environment and we always go out of our way to screw things up!!! Talk about trial by media!! I cannot think of any other profession that goes out of their way to fix and resolve percieved/actual inadequacies to the betterment of public safety. Before anyone says "medicine". Think again!! Give these people the professional courtesy that they deserve. In all likelyhood, you, your family or friends, may have been in their hands domestically or around the world without incident for years! That goes for you Ben!!!!