Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Another Qantas incident

Old 4th Nov 2009, 04:48
  #61 (permalink)  
Keg

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Can you have landing flap without gear, without a bloody great horn going off?
Nope. Given the ATSB report is thin on the actual details it's not exactly clear what the config was.
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Old 4th Nov 2009, 05:11
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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I'm also wondering if continual worrying about the future, continual assigned leave,continual fear campaigns by managment to destabilise the pilot's resolve, the continual changes in procedures, all in the name of cost reductions and apparently change for changes sake had anything to do with this?
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Old 4th Nov 2009, 05:25
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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There might be some truth in the rumour that you need to do a wheels up landing of some sort to get into Qantas. It looks like the practice still continues amongst the pilots even when in Qantas.

I am sure many off you have seen the GA monopoly board with the square "wheels up landing, straight to the Qantas hold file".

Before you all start having a go at me, I am not the one who designed this monopoly board. I am only pointing something out.

Now sorry if offended anyone, just a bit of humour.

I admit I make mistakes just like any other pilot and I aware this can can happen to anyone and any airline, including me

Best wishes to the pilots involved and I hope we can all learn something from this.

Last edited by John Citizen; 4th Nov 2009 at 05:50.
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Old 4th Nov 2009, 05:55
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Well Blown ,welcome to the real world of aviation and NONE of us are immuned and that includes the mighty red tail.
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Old 4th Nov 2009, 05:56
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Pilot error epidemic

As I read these posts an ad for tonights "7pm Project has come on to discuss the growing pilot error epidemic....grrh.

What about when the media get their facts wrong - Journalist error epidemic.
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Old 4th Nov 2009, 06:15
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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Can you have landing flap without gear, without a bloody great horn going off?
As has been said, not a chance. With flaps in the landing range and the gear not down and locked you'll generate a full landing config warning.

My guess is the flaps were in a different position (and the gear not down), so the config warning only happened at 800 ft - but that is just a guess

Time will tell. I've always thought Ben's writings exposed himself to abuse from knowledgeable people.
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Old 4th Nov 2009, 06:39
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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FUC

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Old 4th Nov 2009, 06:59
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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I wonder if Ben has read the journalism code of ethics by the AJA? It might do him some good. Code of ethics and journalism in the same sentence ... what an oxymoron!

For all those professional pilots (not the QF or pilot bashers) on here, time will tell. Don't jump to conclusions without the facts. "Discretion is the better part of valour".
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Old 4th Nov 2009, 07:08
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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QANTAS really should have better functions to invite journo's to.
It will keep them off thier back.
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Old 4th Nov 2009, 07:15
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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Smile



John Citizen, do you mean this?
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Old 4th Nov 2009, 07:57
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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When I joined an Australian airline as a very junior F/O some 46 yrs ago, a wise old DC3 Captain and ex WW2 Spitfire pilot said to me..." Son, let me tell you three things you should never forget if you want to have a successful airline career "...

1. Never forget to put the wheels down!
2. Never run out of fuel!
3. Never forget that the airline is NOT here to service the pax, rather, the pax are here to service the airline!

I can still feel his big hand on my puny shoulder all those years ago. How a big bugger like him fitted into a Spit I'll never know. He died a couple of weeks ago!

Keep his advice in mind and you should have a successful career!
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Old 4th Nov 2009, 08:45
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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Reasons Lament

Groaner,

Y'know, the thing that gets me is the Qantas auto-response "There was no risk" and "There was no flight safety issue".

That's the same as saying "There are no holes in my Swiss cheese." When there clearly were in this case.
May I suggest, that if you want to talk in terms of the Reason model, the Qantas spin doctor response was really saying that the holes in the swiss cheese didn't line up.

For whatever reason a go-around was performed followed by a safe landing. One of the defences in place prevented an attempted landing in an unsafe configuration.
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Old 4th Nov 2009, 10:00
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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unsuspecting punters fat, dumb and happy coz they b
Watch the language. You can be sued for using sterotyping in terms of medical disabilities. Thank your lucky stars religion of the punters wasn't mentioned lest fatwa's issued
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Old 4th Nov 2009, 10:52
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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Well the ATSB report states that they commenced the go-around due to being incorrectly configured and DURING the go-around, the EGPWS alert of 'too low gear' sounded. As far as I'm aware the EGPWS alert 4A only goes off below 500'AGL and at a speed of less than about 160kts. As the report states that this alert sounded, they must have ducked below these qualifiers during the go around and not commenced the go around due to the EGPWS gear alert. From memory though, a 'too low terrain' alert should have sounded before the 'too low gear' alert somewhere between 1000-500AGL (dependent on their IAS)?

Hard luck lads, thoughts are with you. Hope the report shows it to be favourable in your direction as any of us could be caught in this situation with the right combination of factors.

Cheers
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Old 4th Nov 2009, 11:10
  #75 (permalink)  


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Perhaps they were too engrossed with crewing issues on their laptops?

Seriously, chin up chaps not exactly a non-event but not quite the disaster the media would have you believe. I hope the media circus doesn't influence the outcome.
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Old 4th Nov 2009, 11:29
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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There seems to be quite a few "how could this type of thing ever happen in an RPT airline", written by Disgusted Of Microsoft. Let me paint a picture and see if we're al impervious:

767 coming down the slope at Flap 5, Vref+40 and the speed's beginning to go a bit high due lack of headwind (or whatever). Okay, let's select Flap 20. I know, all you perfectionists; don't use the flaps for drag but I'm flying in the real world. Now, we all know how we are programmed to do certain things. The normal call is 'gear down, flap 20', so you can see where I'm going here. When not sitting in a comfortable armchair, where evrything is surrealy perfect, the mindest of a normal pilot would be that Flap 20 normally means he has has the gear down, so the bells are not ringing in his head telling him something's wrong. The other thing is the checklist; well that always comes with 'gear down, flap 20' doesn't it? So, once again, cranial alarm bells are silent.

It doesn't take a lot for something like this to happen because we do so many 'actions' so ofetn that we become programmed to know that when such-and-such has been done, then something else must have been done (one reason I always write silly notes-to-self when doing a Flap 15 take-off, for example).

Having got into an undesireable situation the crew did the correct thing, they went around. Yes, Mr Journalist, amazingly the aircraft did continue its descent for a short period. If you look up Mr Newton and 'Gravity' you'll find a few clues as to the reason.

Qantas have done the right thing, I believe, by suspending the pilots while they investigate the incident, This protects the pilots and the airline and allows far easier 'probing' by the relevant parties. The reasons for the ommission will be established and hopefully published in order to educate those who might do exactly the same one day. The pilots, IF REQUIRED, will undergo additional training to prevent it ever happening to them again and you can bet your arse it won't.

So, yes, we are all human and things like this will always happen because, as has already been pointed out, we are not 100% perfect. Those who think they are are in far a big fall but I'm yet to meet one of those pilots. It's what we do when we get into an imperfect situation that's important and these guys did the right thing.
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Old 4th Nov 2009, 12:41
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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No facts. Lets hang the crew!! Any real pro flight deck crew would empathize with these guys!! This is our operating environment and we always go out of our way to screw things up!!! Talk about trial by media!! I cannot think of any other profession that goes out of their way to fix and resolve percieved/actual inadequacies to the betterment of public safety. Before anyone says "medicine". Think again!! Give these people the professional courtesy that they deserve. In all likelyhood, you, your family or friends, may have been in their hands domestically or around the world without incident for years! That goes for you Ben!!!!
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Old 4th Nov 2009, 12:56
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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Normal SOP Con Fig. Sequence and Calls:-
“Flap 1”-“Flap 5”-“ GearDown -F20”-“ Flap30 -LND C’list”
These calls reduce the “Speed Bug” 20Kts each call in a 4 step configuration.
However the Flap settings avail are:- 1, 5, 15, 20, 25, 30. ( 6 step/settings possible)
15 / 20 and 25/ 30 have same “Bug” settings on ASI to fly.
If on APP at “Flap 5” and you’re a bit fast for F20 you called for “Flap15” to configure(help slow down), the PNF would set the same ASI “Bug” as Flap 20 but the gear would not be down, as per the normal sequence of configuration. As PF you could forget the Bug setting is for F15 not "Gear Down-F20" so your next call is “Flaps30-LND C’list” DOH..... now your below 1500-1300' without even Gear or Flap 20.

FFRATS
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Old 4th Nov 2009, 12:58
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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I remember once listening to a talk by a psycologist from Farnborough who had been involved in aviation accident investigation. He told a story of one crew that did land wheels up, and the captain commented "there's something wrong with the brakes"
He(the psycologist) apparently investigated a number of wheels up incidents, and remarked that in almost every occasion the crew had gone through the checklist and called "gear down three greens" and then landed with no wheels.
I can remember scaring myself a couple of times,but always got them down. I bet most pilots can too.
I made a strict rule for myself and my pilots."when you see a runway ahead check wheels." This was a double check, independent of checklists, automatics etc.

There are those who have, and those who will. I sympathise with these pilots.
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Old 4th Nov 2009, 13:37
  #80 (permalink)  
 
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To be fair, we've been speculating only about the crew. How about a little speculation on Ben Sandilands? Perhaps he'd been taking a break for a few days with a fishing pole, some adult beverages and sunscreen. Upon his return to the keyboard, he was aghast to realize that needed a topic FAST to fill up space and make his deadline and there wasn't a lot on his desk to choose from. Voila!!! The item that was the simplest and fastest to elaborate upon with 250 words was really a non-event, but it filled a space. Journos have been making mountains out of molehills since pencils were invented.
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