Tiger Loads Bags onto wrong flights

[pilotshorvath]

captaintunedog777

Are we really that good?

This question is vague to me...

Are you asking if 150 knots is high or low, if a one knot difference is normal, a rhetorical question or something else?

[adl1745]

Should this incident have been reported to the ATSB?

[Ixixly]

Probably not, but your use of necromancy of this thread should most likely to be reported to the authorities...

[framer]

It is a common event.
I have seen the baggage for two seperate flights loaded onto one a/c with air new zealand (picked up on walk around by f/o) and also seen bags for one flight loaded onto a different a/c with Jetstar.....picked up after start but before taxi by ground staff. I have also been on the flight deck of an a/c where full fwd yoke to the stops was required to keep the nose from rising and speed decaying after rotation due to incorrect loading. Nasty nasty stuff.
It is the price we pay for having a transient workforce on the ground. Invest little in their training and make them work part time rosters and they see it as a temporary job rather than a career that has future and responsibilty. Many loaders I talk to now could care less that they are involved in an a/c operation, it may as well be a truck or a train they are loading. Little training is provided to them (it costs money) and many of them have no idea that the work they do is important. I like to blame accountants, it makes me feel better.
Framer

[gobbledock]

Interesting

Careful framer,
The majority of poster's and fellow aviation specialists would disagree with your following comment :

I have seen the baggage for two seperate flights loaded onto one a/c with air new zealand (picked up on walk around by f/o) and also seen bags for one flight loaded onto a different a/c with Jetstar.....picked up after start but before taxi by ground staff. I have also been on the flight deck of an a/c where full fwd yoke to the stops was required to keep the nose from rising and speed decaying after rotation due to incorrect loading. Nasty nasty stuff.

And what is scary is that other fellow Pilots agree that the misplacement of baggage, incorrect LIR's and a myriad of other 'loading mistakes' wouldn't cause a problem ! Now that is scary !
Well my friend, I concur with you entirely as I have had a similar incident occur to me, and other Drivers have told me the same story. In fact when you fly for an LCC and basically the same 320 every week over a long period of time you learn quickly when something feels 'out of kilter'. And the scene that you painted is spot on. What is reported is just the tip of the iceberg and I would doubt all actual incidents are reported in the first place, which is something I would have never suggested 7 or 8 years ago.

Some more accurate reporting by you:

It is the price we pay for having a transient workforce on the ground. Invest little in their training and make them work part time rosters and they see it as a temporary job rather than a career that has future and responsibilty. Many loaders I talk to now could care less that they are involved in an a/c operation, it may as well be a truck or a train they are loading. Little training is provided to them (it costs money) and many of them have no idea that the work they do is important.

Absolutely spot on again. I have even had ramp staff tell me that they 'couldn't give a s*#t' because the Senior Managers don't' !
And for those who are disbelievers, trawl through the ATSB weekly occurence reports and add up how many 'ramp loading incidents' have occured with AUS operators over the past 3 years. Around 130 reportables on containerised aircraft alone, with around 90% of these incidents belonging to just one LCC !!! But hey, there are no serious issues out there , no systemic problems, and all these reports made to the ATSB which are mandatory in relation to loading mistakes are supposedly an over-reaction according to most of our fellow posters which would mean the ATSB has it all wrong as well ?

All very interesting me thinks. And so it goes.

[VBPCGUY]

What a crock of **** framer

[framer]

What a crock of **** framer

Wow! thats an interesting reaction.lol.
Why on earth do you feel so strongly about my comments?
The events I described are 100% true and I can give you details via pm if you wish......might even be able to drag an incident report off my laptop if I dig deep enough.

I hope your day gets better mate,
Framer


edited to spell feel correctly

[pilotshorvath]

I have also been on the flight deck of an a/c where full fwd yoke to the stops was required to keep the nose from rising and speed decaying after rotation due to incorrect loading.

Framer, It would be interesting to know what type/size of aircraft this was on, and what the incorrect loading/weight was!

-------

EG, was that event in the jet narrow body category and as a result of 1-2 tonnes of mis-loaded bags?

[gobbledock]

Framer

Framer,
I say this while biting my tongue and trying to remain a good boy and not upset the mods, but VBPCGUY is obviously a youngling mate, naieve and inexperienced. Too much time sniffing jet fuel and cabin crews panties in locker 1a. Not only that, remember there are other 'alleged' Drivers who have posted on this thread who also think there is virtually no issue if you throw a passenger jet out of balance by 6 tonne

P.S
If you could provide poof to pilotshorvath as you were willing to give to VBPCGUY that would be good because he also is a non believer in the crash likelihood of an out of trim aircraft. I have a tonne of evidence myself, as well as personal experience ( widebody aircraft and a selection of narrow bodied aircraft ) and mountains of other evidence but have chosen to retain the data and not break any 'legal bounds'. Besides, I don't need to prove anything to anybody else, I have seen and personally experienced the facts stated within this thread. As for the poster's who back the facts that an out of trim aircraft, incorrectly loaded aircraft or virtually any weight and balance irregularity or mistake won't cause a fatal crash, you are wrong.

[pilotshorvath]

Any published reports?

Gobbledock,

I operate real aircraft, am aware of balance issues, and always operate safely. I also never said that being 6 tonnes out of balance is going to go unnoticed, but anyway...

Can we just go back to what started this thread?...

that bags for two TT flights leaving Adelaide were put on the wrong flights... apparently all bags going to Melbourne were loaded onto the Gold coast flight, and the bags for Gold coast were loaded onto the Melbourne flight...

Tiger operate A319/320 aircraft.

So with the experience/reports you have, could you say there has been a crash in these circumstances? Obviously I don't need specifics, but I'd like to know if there have been any cases in the world where this sort of mis-load has caused a crash, or full-forward yoke effects similar to what framer mentioned. I certainly haven't heard of any (that are a result of conditions similar to THIS loading scenario). Eg. 1-2 tonnes of bags on a narrowbody aircraft

If you have a link to an Investigation Report (eg. like what ATSB puts out) from an aviaiton investigation board anywhere in the world, then others may be able to read it and learn something!

Safe flying!

[framer]

Framer, It would be interesting to know what type/size of aircraft this was on, and what the incorrect loading/weight was!

Thats fair enough Pilotshorvath, it was a medium sized twin turbo-prop and the extra weight was well aft and from memory totalled about 5% of the aircrafts MTOW. I take the point that it is maybe not totally relevant to this conversation. I mention it because it really struck a chord with me regards out of trim situations and changed my attitude towards them.
I don't profess to be an expert on the subject but I can't see why 3 tonnes on a 60 tonne aircraft would be much different. There may be good reasons why it is different. I am ready to learn if someone can explain it to me.

Gobbledock, on closer inspection I think VBPCGUY might be a loader and was somehow offended by me saying they don't have good enough training/conditions etc...strange thing about that is that I was saying they need to be treated better.

Cheers Framer

[ad-astra]

Probably not, but your use of necromancy of this thread should most likely to be reported to the authorities...

Ixixly.....Very very funny!

Alas it was lost on all but myself.

For the rest continue with the feeding frenzy.....

[VBPCGUY]

Framer please send me the PM Id be interested to have a read.

[framer]

PM sent VBPC,
Have a good one, Framer
Now back to the topic,

1-2 tonnes of bags on a narrowbody aircraft

To answer your question,

I can't think of an accident caused by this but what do you think would happen to your 35ft clearance if you lost an engine after a reduced thrust take-off that had obstacle clearance as it's limitation? C of G issues aside you are going to chew up more runway getting to your Vr and then on top of that you are going to have a lesser ROC . If you add to that pitch oscillations etc it could well be an accident.
If the chance of those things coming together is too remote for you then why don't we just adjust the C of G limits so that it will work with all engines but you're stuffed if you lose one?
Hopefully that didn't sound condescending , it wasn't meant to, it just seems to me that that is what you propose we accept.
Cheers, Framer

[Panop]

Wrong Load

Mildly off topic but even full loads of SLF can end up on the wrong aircraft so what chance do bags have
.
http://www.pprune.org/5010554-post42.html

[Willoz269]

This brings back a lot of memories....in the old days of Compass, Australian Airlines baggage handlers did the loading in Melbourne due to lack of space....they would ALWAYS load an LD3 container on the wrong flight, or individual bags on the wrong flight....everytime Compass staff went to the baggage loading area to verify, AA baggage handlers would stop work until they left, so there was nothing that could be done.

I remember a prized Poodle dog was sent to Perth in a crate when the destination should have been Cairns...complaints used to mount, but nothing could be done about it.

Also remember another time a freight forwarder brought a large pallet for loading on an A300 Sydney- Cairns...the freight forwarder brought the pallet on a trolley in the middle of the night, towed by a huge truck...in the manifest it said 2 tons of machine parts....no problems, except that the wheels on the trolley holding the pallet were being pushed down and out by the weight of the pallet. The Compass loading guys were curious and decided to tow the pallet to Qantas to make use of their pallet scales...only problem was, the baggage tug could barely tow the pallet!!! A truck was brought in and the pallet was towed to QF, and to everyone's astonightment, it weighed 13 tons!!! It was no general machinery, it was steel rail wheels and brake assemblies!! The freight forwarder explained that his scales were broken so he just used the same weight he used every single night on every pallet he sent to Qantas and Singapore Airlines...only in this case, the discrepancy was 9tons!

[Cactusjack]

FAA Aims To Fine AMR Unit

By ANDY PASZTOR

Federal aviation regulators as early as Monday are expected to propose a nearly $2.5 million civil penalty against the commuter unit of AMR Corp.'s American Airlines Inc. for allegedly using incorrect takeoff weights on more than 150 flights, according to people familiar with the details.

Such missteps can result in safety hazards during takeoffs and landings-particularly in windy or wet conditions-if pilots rely on incorrect weight information to come up with appropriate speeds for certain maneuvers or braking distances.

The Federal Aviation Administration's action against American Eagle Airlines Inc. covers differences between manual and automated systems that record the total weight of baggage loaded into the holds of aircraft. As part of the enforcement case, according to these people, American Eagle continued to use improper practices on dozens of flights even after FAA inspectors alerted the company about the problem.
On Sunday, an American Eagle spokeswoman said the company believes the proposed penalties "are excessive and inappropriate" because the two systems "have among the most reliable safeguards and protections in the industry." In a detailed written statement, the spokeswoman said "the vast majority of the discrepancies cited by the FAA involved baggage handlers" failing to record certain bags on paper records. American Eagle said it is confident that the electronic weight measurements were accurate, the discrepancies "posed no safety hazard to these flights" and the company has committed to invest in scanners that should eliminate the possibility of such mix-ups in the future.

Over the years, federal crash investigators have warned the FAA and the airlines to pay greater attention to weight and balance issues, especially in smaller commuter aircraft where significant underestimates of takeoff weight can cause serious and unexpected flight characteristics.
Pilots typically feed weight totals into their flight-management computers before departure in order to establish takeoff speeds and other flight parameters.

Concerns about incorrect data are hardly theoretical. Even jumbo jets have scraped their tails during takeoffs, and in one recent incident barely avoided plunging back to the ground after pilots mistakenly fed improper data into their onboard computer systems.

In 2006, a chartered Bombardier Challenger business jet failed to take off from New Jersey's Teterboro Airport, plowed through a fence, crossed a highway and slammed into a building, seriously injuring four people. Investigators determined that the primary cause of the accident was the flight crew's failure to assure that the plane's weight and balance were within normal limits.

[pilotshorvath]

it just seems to me that that is what you propose we accept.

Not at all! It's an open forum after all, where people can discuss things.

Speaking of which, I finally had a bit of time to print off some blank weight and balance sheets and play around with some figures.

Yes, while a few of my practice loads opened my eyes, I came up with some general observations:

1) With an unplanned load, it is much more likely that balance would be of more concern than engine/takeoff performance, especially if the operator includes buffers on the takeoff figures.

2) Using the most critical passenger and fuel loads (the ones that create most CG movement, it is possible to get right near the aft CG limit WITHOUT pax bags, so if you put 2 tonne of bags in the rear-most cargo hold, it would create issues.

3) However, with an average load of bags (e.g. for Melbourne or Gold Coast- this topic), the CG ends up relatively close to the middle of the range, and an extra 1-2 tonnes still keeps within CG limits almost every time. Tiger would have had to be very unlucky to end up out of balance with the MEL-OOL bag mix-up.

So, can a narrow body jet be loaded out of balance: definitely, but you have to try pretty hard to do it.

But yes, I learnt a few things too!

[Carrier]

Quote: "and I would doubt all actual incidents are reported in the first place"

This is a major issue. Stories are circulating about a number of pilots with various air operators in Canada being terminated because they reported safety issue under the SMS. Pilots and others are afraid to make reports that might cost them their jobs. The SMS idea has broken down. As a result nobody knows the extent of safety problems but it has clearly been substantially degraded as problems are swept under the carpet and the same safety threats are allowed to continue or even increase.

[VH-Cheer Up]

As luck would have it, our wayward pax arrived in Perth just in time to be put on the midnight horror back to Sydney and arrive bright eyed and bushy tailed on parade next morning. He was an AJ.

Alright, I'll bite. What's an AJ?